Interview with Shayna Fertig

Transcript

Sheldon Young
Welcome to the No Footprints podcast brought to you by Alfa Laval, I am Sheldon Young.

Jason Moreau
And I’m Jason Moreau.

Sheldon Young
And we’re here to talk about impact and to share the efforts and people behind making sustainability real.

Jason, I’m going to say this. We record our episodes a little bit in advance, so we’re currently in December, but by the time people hear this, it’s going to be New Year’s. So I just want to say to you, my friend, Happy New Year.

Jason Moreau
Happy New Year to you. Yes. Exactly.

The big question is, will I still be typing 2025 by the time this airs? Have I made the mental switch that it’s 26? There’s always that couple weeks, right?

Sheldon Young
Like people used to say, Oh, I’m writing in like March. I’m still scribbling down a 25, scratching it off. Good news is that you can easily turn the five into a six when you’re writing it.

It’s just a little, a little attachment there. You just got like a complete the loop. I like how you’re still analog.

I appreciate that. I mean, I’m a little analog, hopefully emails. I wonder if they’ve done that yet, where if you type 2025, like if the email will give you a, Hey, 26, you know, if it gives a little prompt, they seem to be getting smarter.

These electronic things.

Jason Moreau
Smarter and simultaneously more crazy sometimes with what they recommend as the better answer. Yeah.

Sheldon Young
Yes. And I dislike it when they just change it. And don’t ask me.

I’m like, what? No, no. I meant to write that word that it was a real word for me.

For me, of course, not for it, but yes, it’s a real word. But anyways, it’s it, but it would be 2026 when people hear this and I’m excited. I mean, we had a great first year of the podcast, I think, you know, it’s not quite a full one year yet, but we started back in, I think it was April of 25 and, you know, so we’ve, we now enter a new year.

So I think new things, good things coming about new, but what do we, what do you think we have in store? What’s in your little brain? When we talk a little brain, what is in your massive, giant, smart brain?

When we talk about 26 and we think about what we might be doing in the podcast.

Jason Moreau
Ooh. Well, yeah, I will tease that, uh, one of my big priorities and shouldn’t be a surprise to anybody is, uh, launching a companion website.

Sheldon Young
Ooh.

Jason Moreau
Yes. So for people who want to go deeper on some of our guests or particular topics, um, when we referenced links, um, I think it’ll be a really good, as I say, companion piece to the podcast and hoping to get that launched pretty early in this new year.

Sheldon Young
So, oh, I love this. I love this. I know we’ve talked about it.

Uh, I, I’m excited to put, um, you know, to put more resources, even stuff, you know, even if we just referenced it in the podcast, like resources for people to help them on their sustainability journey. I think this will be a correct place for that. Like this is, it’s not just going to be about the podcast.

It’s about, again, we do this so you can make sustainability real. That is the goal that we have for this is helping people make their sustainability journey a reality. And so I want to help people do that and through our little, our little medium here and through the, uh, information we share, I hope it, hope it moves a few needles for folks.

Jason Moreau
I would hope so too. Yeah. And that is absolutely the intent.

So look out for that soon. I would hope by the time it’s like, yeah, I like it. How about you?

Let’s see.

Sheldon Young
I don’t know. I think, um, uh, I don’t know. We may, we’ll see if we, if we keep getting the number of guests in a pipeline that we, I think we’re going to have, we keep getting lots of good conversations, having good conversations.

We may add more guest episodes and have fewer, uh, non guests or we may add another episode or two here and there. We may have a surprise episode, so make sure to subscribe so you get all the notifications. Don’t want to just show up on the first and third Tuesday and expect the podcast.

You may want to have notifications. I like that. So it’s a little, little plug of the notification aspect.

I like it. Very nice. Yeah.

Thank you. I appreciate that good stuff. But, uh, Oh, I want to, I want to plug something.

I’m going to plug something, Jason, January 28th. So this will be, you’ll get this in the first week of January, January 28th, uh, I’m going to be hosting something on F uh, FPSA, um, and it’s going to be like a little fireside chat around sustainability, man. It’s going to be around identifying sustainability in your processes.

I’m going to have two guests and one is, uh, um, I’ll give a surprise to go, go, go find this on FPSA’s website, uh, or ours. I think we’ll, we’ll plug it a little bit on our, on our socials. Uh, you can reach out to, to, to, to me on LinkedIn or whatever, if you want.

And, uh, but it’s really a fireside chat around how people in processing and people that help support processes do that identification of sustainable, uh, activities. How do you make their processes more sustainable? How do you quantify those?

How do you tell that story a little bit better and put information so that you can do good business decisions? So I’m excited to do that with FPSA. I think it’s going to be a really fun, um, little, little lesson for, for folks to tune into.

I always will make it entertaining. I always try to keep it a fun, a fun chat. So please come join us there after you listen to the podcast.

Jason Moreau
For sure. And to be clear, it’s open to everybody, right? Not just FPSA members.

Sheldon Young
That is a very good question that I don’t know the answer to, but Hey, what is it? I think I’m right.

Jason Moreau
I think I’m right. You should be a member, but if you’re not, I’m pretty sure you can still attend. So definitely find the link on the social, reach out to Sheldon and register.

Cause yeah, I’m sure it’s going to be great.

Sheldon Young
It’s going to be just dead, mostly because of the two great guests that I have. I’m excited about that. Anyways.

So let’s start with you, Jason, a little sustainability story. What do you have for a story this week?

Jason Moreau
So sustainability story. Um, so in the new year, uh, and this, this is sort of tied into our guests today. Um, I wanted to just sort of, um, maybe just give a plug of my own where if you are looking for ways to, uh, reduce, uh, your impact in terms of food.

Um, cause I think the stat we always like to talk about is, uh, 30% of greenhouse gases come from our food supply chain. Um, one of the big things that you can do is go local. Um, and a great way to do that are with CSAs, which are community supported agriculture.

And normally what these are, are essentially membership organizations. Uh, it’s usually a local farm. And you pay a membership and then usually twice a month or whatever it is during the growing season, you get your share, you’re essentially buying a share of the farms harvest.

And you get it either delivered to you or, um, some CSAs, you’ll go pick it up at like a local farmer’s market. Um, but it’s a great way to not only support, uh, local agriculture, your local farmers, but obviously because it is local, you’re reducing the carbon footprint of shipping things. You’re buying things that are in season.

So there’s less energy used to store fruits and vegetables or other products off season. Right. So it’s just a really nice way to, I think, be more sustainable.

Um, and then, so I would, I would either Google CSAs near me. Um, there’s a cool app that I’ve been exploring called red hen app, which will also allow you to locate, um, CSAs and regenerative, uh, farming collectives near you. Um, if all of those aren’t quite to your mix, there’s also.

Misfit markets, right. Um, which is another way of, uh, reducing your climate impact when you’re, when you’re thinking about getting your food.

Sheldon Young
So, yeah, we talked about those a little bit with Amanda. Oh, I’m bring, right. Yes.

Yes. Yeah.

Jason Moreau
Correct. Yeah. So, you know, in the new year, I think, um, you know, I want to do those 1% changes and think about like, what are those things that I can do to, to, uh, improve what I’m doing personally or as a household.

And so those are some of the things that I’m looking at doing, um, this year. So just wanted to talk about that.

Sheldon Young
Yeah. That’s a good one. I like that.

I’ll, I’ll add one more plug on that. I mean, if, if for example, not committing to something like that is too much for you, go to the locals farmers market. Oh yeah.

Just the OGs.

Jason Moreau
Yeah, exactly.

Sheldon Young
Oh gee. I mean, it called the on-demand CSA. Yes, correct.

Yeah. And there’s a great one here. We live in Richmond, Virginia.

There is a, a great one here, uh, on North side. Uh, it’s called, I think it’s called, uh, uh, Bryant park. I think Bryant Park farmers market.

It’s a really, really big one and a good one that goes, that goes year round.

Jason Moreau
So if you’re South side, that would be the Forest Hill farmers market, which has been going on for decades.

Sheldon Young
And I’ll tell you about that later. That’s okay. Yes.

Yes. Uh, it’s, uh, I think they moved that to Bryant Park. That’s why I think it, uh, is, uh, we’ll see.

We’ll talk about this. All right. So I want to talk really quick.

I have a story. Uh, well, this is a kind of a little bit of a downer story, but it just kind of connect to, um, this guest a little bit. And this story came out after we had our guests on.

Otherwise they totally would have had this as part of the conversation. Um, um, where believer meets, uh, this is an Israeli, uh, lab grown meat startup. They actually, the first non USA or, uh, non, uh, US lab grown meat that was approved by the FDA.

Uh, they have a, uh, raised about 390 million bucks, built a facility, full-scale facility that was capable of around, uh, 26 million pounds of chicken was their goal, unfortunately has ceased operations. Um, um, yeah. And so it was a big downer in terms of, uh, you know, the, I guess the, the lab grown protein movement.

Right. Uh, so I think it’s, it’s unfortunate. Now the big question is, you know, why is it?

Because, uh, you know, all of the, is it, you know, people just don’t want this or is there lots of other things around that? Well, that’s a great question. I think we only, they know the answer.

You can look at it though. And lots of, from lots of angles. I mean, was it too much too soon?

Jason Moreau
Right.

Sheldon Young
Was the market right? Well, you’re a marketing person. Jason was the market ready for it.

Number one, uh, this plant was fully also dedicated to chicken. Now chicken is not the most expensive meat, right? Right.

So the challenge with that of course, is you have to then become, uh, price parity, price parity, right? And so that means you have to run superficially and get it right. And actually, you know, it squeezes your margins, frankly, as opposed to doing something more.

Now other meats can be more complicated from what I’ve read, right? Like a, a beef or pork that can be more complicated. So the process may not yield as much or it might take longer.

So there’s all these different factors. Everyone can be a Monday morning quarterback and say, why didn’t this work? I’m going to give them a pat on the back and saying, thank you for trying.

Uh, and hopefully this facility can be repurposed.

Jason Moreau
Right.

Sheldon Young
And so, you know, maybe it’s the next iteration of something like this. Maybe they, someone tries with a more, um, because it’s a bunch of bioreactors. So if you don’t know, lab grown meat, I’m going to call it.

That is, is a grown in essentially bioreactors to a full, you know, giant stainless steel, super sanitary vessels that are basically cell cultures that grow these things. And then they formulate whatever process they use to take those cells and create the final product for consumption. And it’s incredibly sanitary.

Running a facility like that is very late. It’s intensive because it is essentially a biotechnology process, which has to be very super sanitary, the cleaning procedures and all the things that go with it and all the operational aspects of that are very expensive. So I’m sure that was a factor, right?

You have to run a bio, basically a biopharma lab, um, to grow food, right. Where you can have a chicken for less than two bucks a pound in some cases, right? All that stuff comes into play.

I, again, I’m sad that this happened. I am thankful. Someone has taken the shot.

The evolution of protein is not over. We have to continue to look at this and learn from it. Um, now again, another challenge is going to be investors.

You know, you know, invest investment market has been challenging when and China talks about that a little bit. Uh, and so we’re, we’re going to, this is kind of like a, you know, I know it’s not the happiest story, but I think it’s a good one to start with. Cause we’re going to, our next guest here, you know, Shana from the good food Institute is going to be talking about these kinds of things.

And I think this is exactly what, uh, you know, we have to think about, uh, when, for the future here. So we, this is hopefully a lesson that’s learned or lessons that are learned that we can now move forward, continue this, this protein evolution. Cause I guess we have to feed the world and we can’t all be done one way.

We’re going to need traditional proteins. We’re going to need novel proteins. We’re going to need, you know, more plant-based, uh, options as well.

And so all of this is going to matter. And, uh, uh, but I think it’s important. We talk about it, just be honest about it.

You know, this, this, this is a, this is a bummer. It’s a setback for the, uh, the, uh, the market, but we have to learn from it and we have to move forward. So that was my story.

Cause I, I reflected a lot on it after reading about it, uh, and discussing with a couple of people. And I thought, you know, we’d be, we’d be remiss not to talk about it in the podcast.

Jason Moreau
Yep. Now it’s a good call out.

Sheldon Young
All right. So let’s get onto our guests, happier things. Our guest is fantastic.

Uh, you know, uh, Shayna is basically someone, uh, we met through another one of our guests initially, uh, had great conversation with her at climate week, uh, met her, met her for, for a coffee and said, yeah, absolutely. We, we want to have you on to talk about the valuable things that the good food Institute does for this industry. And the many, many people that connect, uh, through them and all the great insights and data that they give us.

So without further ado, let’s get to the guests. What do you say, Jason? Let’s do it.

All right. See you on the other side. Our guest today is Shayna Fertig, who is senior advisor to the president of the Good Food Institute.

Her focus is building strategic relationships across climate, biodiversity, and global health. She brings expertise in strategy, project management, and data analytics with prior experience at impossible foods and Senseo consulting group. She holds dual degrees in economics and systems engineering from the University of Pennsylvania, and it’s our pleasure to welcome her to the No Footprints podcast.

Shayna Fertig
Shayna welcome. Thank you, Sheldon. And thank you, Jason, for having me really happy to be here.

Sheldon Young
Absolutely. Um, appreciate you coming on and I really enjoyed it. I got to get to actually meet you in person, which doesn’t always happen with these podcasts and, um, uh, really enjoyed meeting you up at climate week and having some, some great conversations.

Um, so just, just kicking things off, you know, let’s let the audience know a little bit about you. Tell us about your journey, how you ended up in the world of alternative proteins.

Shayna Fertig
Sure thing. Yeah. So I, I joined the world of alternative proteins about six years ago now, six or seven years ago, I joined Impossible Foods, uh, in 2019.

And most listeners have probably heard of it, but if you haven’t impossible foods is a plant-based meat company. They’re most famous for making the impossible burger, um, which is the burger that bleeds and cooks and tastes just like meat. Um, so I joined the company in early 2019.

I was really interested in using my career to solve problems in the world that I really cared about. Um, and that included the growing threat of climate change that included all the problems posed by, uh, animal agriculture, including contributing to climate change, but also animal welfare and global health issues. Um, so I joined impossible to work on a sales strategy and analytics.

I was primarily working, uh, with our food service sales team. So, uh, working on everything from like the large accounts like Burger King and Starbucks that impossible, uh, is sold out down to like the mom and pop burger shops and non-commercial accounts like hospitals and schools. Uh, and it was really a wild ride.

I mean, I joined just before we launched with Burger King. And the impossible burger impossible Whopper really became mainstream. Um, and then shortly after we launched into Starbucks and nearly every major grocery store around the world.

So, um, it, it was certainly a, a rollercoaster and a lot of fun, um, to be a part of that. And then, uh, about three years ago now I decided to move over to the good food Institute, um, which I’m happy to elaborate on and share more about. Um, but in terms of my, uh, you know, my interest in doing that, it was really because I had worked on the industry side and now I was really, um, keen to explore the policy angle.

Um, so what could governments do to support the growth of alternative proteins, right, realizing that governments were doing so much to support electric vehicles and renewable energy and all the exciting. Other climate friendly tech innovations. Um, and wanting to see, you know, how I could help, um, support the effort to grow government support of, uh, of alternative proteins.

So I’ve now been with GFI nearly three years. Uh, I work closely with our founder and president Bruce Friedrich on building key partnerships and advancing thought leadership around the case, uh, for alternative proteins.

Sheldon Young
Sounds great. And I do want to dive into, uh, Good Food Institute. Get your, I mentioned you and I met at climate week and, uh, I want to get your, your kind of take on, uh, climate week itself, but also, you know, how does the world of food play into the climate story?

Shayna Fertig
Yeah. So it was, yeah, it was great to meet you at climate week. I think that I, I was just there for a very short time this year, so I don’t think I had like the fullest picture necessarily, but I found certain sessions really energizing.

Um, I find honestly, my favorite experiences at climate week and similar events are really the conversations that I have around the margins of it, right? The, either the planned ones or just the run-ins I have with folks. I mean, it’s such a huge event.

I think there was like a record number of people attending this year. So I think each person can have a totally different experience based on where they go and who they talk to. Um, but I’m definitely noticing this was my third climate week and it does seem like every year food is more and more, uh, accepted as part of like the mainstream agenda at climate week.

And I think that’s really important because food is responsible for roughly a third of global greenhouse gas emissions. And you know, about two thirds of those are coming from animal agriculture. And most of those emissions are, uh, coming from things like land use change, uh, deforestation, as well as enteric fermentation, uh, which is, uh, methane emitted from, from ruminant animals like cows.

And I think the broader climate community is increasingly realizing that if we don’t address food systems emissions, we won’t have a shot at reaching climate goals, reaching the Paris agreement goals. I was just reading earlier this week, there was a report put out by the world resources Institute and the systems change lab, along with a number of other organizations that found that all 40 indicators that they track, uh, across different sectors, uh, they are all already off track from reaching Paris goals. So it just emphasizes reducing food systems emissions is more critical than ever, especially if we’re not even on track, uh, to reach goals in, in other sectors.

Jason Moreau
So I was really curious going through your website, um, looking at the alternative protein space, which also I stumbled across on your website that India calls it smart proteins, which as a marketer, I think is brilliant. Like I love that sort of label or moniker. Um, but I was just curious, like, so you’ve been doing it for a few years.

What are some of the common misconceptions that you still find that are like out there, like with either the average consumer or with like the government work that you do, where people just think one thing and it’s, it’s not really that at all.

Shayna Fertig
Yeah. I would say one big misconception that continues to stick around is that alternative proteins, which I realized I haven’t really defined yet, so I definitely can’t go for it.

Sheldon Young
Yeah.

Shayna Fertig
So, so I’ll just start with the misconception and then I’ll go into the definition. So the misconception is that these are really a demand side intervention that we’re really focused on changing consumer behavior, changing hearts and minds. And I think that the, the, the way this is misconstrued is that actually the, the intent is that alternative proteins are more of a supply side intervention in the sense that they aim to replicate the precise taste and texture experience of eating meat and other animal products and are intended not to need to require much consumer behavior, right?

If the products are able to, to taste the same or better and cost the same or less as conventional meat, that requires very minimal behavior change for folks. So similar to how like electric vehicles and renewable energy are, are seen as supply side interventions, just as we need to change how energy is produced and vehicles are powered, we also just need to change how meat is made. So I think, you know, while there are campaigns focused on energy efficiency and improved public transportation, we’re unlikely to convince a majority of consumers worldwide to consume less energy or drive less, right?

We need to meet consumers where they are with price competitive renewables, with electric vehicles that satisfy consumer needs and then similar on alternative proteins, we need products that taste good, that are, are cheap or at least as cheap as animal products and that also fulfill consumer’s needs nutritionally as well.

Sheldon Young
Yeah, absolutely. That’s such a great point. And it’s one that you’re right.

A lot of people don’t get that. They think it’s, it is a, you’re trying to make me do something I don’t want to. Well, we’re trying to make it as easy as possible for you, right?

Well, let’s get back to the important question. We did not ask it yet. Alternative proteins.

It is a widely defined thing. It can mean lots of things. So when in your world of the Good Food Institute, what goes into those buckets?

Shayna Fertig
Right. So how we talk about alternative proteins, we talk about them in three major categories. So meat made from plants, cultivated from animal cells or produced via fermentation.

And the common thread across all three of these is that they are really designed to taste the same or better and cost the same or less compared to conventional animal products. So I’ll dive a little more into those three categories. So plant-based meat, this is meat that is produced directly from plants.

It’s composed of protein, fat, vitamins, minerals, and water. And it really looks, cooks, and tastes like conventional meat. So this is like what I was talking about earlier at Impossible Foods.

The Impossible Burger is an example of plant-based meat where all the ingredients are plant-based, but really with the intention of tasting like meat. The second category, fermentation-derived products. So these are products that use microorganisms like yeast, for example, to produce functional protein ingredients or biomass.

So the functional protein ingredients, that would be precision fermentation. So that’s things like producing whey protein or egg proteins, like a very specific functional ingredient that is then incorporated into a broader product. As well as the second category, and that being biomass fermentation, which is where the actual output of fermentation is the meat-like product.

So an example of that is the company Korn with a Q that you may have heard of. And there’s a newer company called the Better Meat Company out there that’s producing biomass fermentation. Oh, great.

OK, yeah. And then finally, the third category is cultivated meat. So this is meat that is produced directly from animal cells using the basic elements that are needed to build muscle and fat to enable the same biological processes that happen inside of an animal, except that it’s happening inside of a bioreactor.

And then the meat is harvested there and produced into final meat products.

Sheldon Young
Wow, fantastic. And so how are alternative meats part of the solution? I think it’s kind of obvious, but let’s explain it.

Shayna Fertig
Yeah, sure. I think that given, as I mentioned, that animal agriculture is responsible for about two thirds of all food systems emissions, it’s really important to explore how can we reduce these emissions? And I think there is a number of efforts.

Outside of alternative proteins that are underway, right, there are efforts to make animal agriculture, as it is more sustainable in various ways, there are things like feed additives fed to animals to reduce their emissions. There are efforts to intensify animal agriculture by reducing the land footprint. And then there’s also efforts to get people to simply eat more plants, right, to go plant based, to incorporate more plants in their diet and reduce the amount of animals that that are eaten.

And I think that, you know, these are all great and worthwhile and we need all of the above because the crisis is so is reaching crisis levels that we need all the solutions that are out there. But. The issue that we at GFI see with these other approaches in that they’re great, but they’re not enough is that efforts to reduce the emissions intensity of animal ag and get people to eat more plants, it’s simply not very scalable.

Right. So you’re going to have to have different, different localized solutions and it’s not easily scalable versus with alternative proteins. If you figure out the technological bottlenecks that are that are stopping us from reaching taste and price parity right now, that can scale really easily across across companies.

And it’s also really difficult to convince people to eat less meat and dairy. Right. People love meat.

It tastes really good. And especially for people who are coming out of poverty in developing countries and haven’t had access to meat, the idea that. That we that we should be asking folks to not eat meat is hard, and even in developed countries, per capita meat consumption is still rising, even in the US, the last few years have been the the five highest years, I think, for per capita meat consumption in the US.

So our efforts to convince people to eat less meat are not really working so far. So that’s why we think alternative proteins is an important piece of the puzzle for people who do want to keep eating meat. And this is a way that they can do so less harmfully to the environment, to global health, et cetera.

Sheldon Young
Right. So that gets us kind of the Good Food Institute where you’re where you’re applying your efforts. Can you just tell us a little bit about you give us a little bit teaser already.

Give us a little bit more about how it positioned itself in the industry. How was it formed? What do you what do you got for us on that?

Shayna Fertig
Sure. So GFI is a nonprofit science driven think tank that is helping to build a more sustainable, secure and just food system. And we are funded fully by philanthropy.

We work across the scientific industry and policy landscapes to ensure that alternative proteins are a key piece of the toolkit to address environmental, global health and food security challenges. So we work, as I mentioned, across these three main stakeholder groups, science, policy and industry. With science, we map out the most neglected areas that will allow alternative proteins to compete on taste, price and nutrition.

And we meet these challenges by funding open access research, developing resources and educating and connecting the next generation of scientists and entrepreneurs that are working on food system sustainability. So we have relationships and we’re building ecosystems across different universities and scientific research centers to really ensure that scientists are able to work on the most pressing problems across alternative protein science. And then on the policy side, we try to ensure that alternative proteins are part of the toolkit for governments to address climate change, global health, future resilient jobs and food security.

And in all the regions where we have a presence. So one thing I didn’t note is that we actually are a network of different affiliates. So we have GFI based in the US, but then we also have GFI Brazil, India, Asia, Pacific, Japan, Israel and Europe.

So across all of these different regions, we advocate for public investment and public incentives to transition toward alternative proteins. So I was comparing alternative proteins to renewable energy and electric vehicles. We see a lot of the things that have made those industries be successful is open access funding for research from governments.

It’s commercialization funding and loans for companies to be able to scale up. So we advocate for those same types of benefits for alternative protein companies. And on the government side, we also are paving the way for the approval of novel proteins like cultivated meat that in many countries need special regulatory pathways in order to be approved to sell.

And then finally, I don’t think I’ve talked about industry yet, so there’s science policy and then industry. So the way that we work with industry is we really work to replicate past market transformations by working with companies of all sizes. So all the way from startups to the big food multinational companies, we work to show them the benefits of protein diversification and how alternative proteins can be profitable while meeting sustainability goals.

So we put out frequent reports and other resources to help all companies be able to grow their knowledge base. And we also offer a mentorship program, not just for industry, but for anyone who’s interested in alternative proteins and wanting some mentorship in that aspect.

Sheldon Young
Wow, that’s a lot. So you’re not very busy, I take it.

Shayna Fertig
No, not at all. Thankfully, it’s not just me. We have over 200 team members around the world that are doing this important work.

Sheldon Young
That’s fantastic. I mean, again, I worked with the GFI on this stuff and I’ve been in one of your events and things like that. I still, you just peeled the onion way back for me.

It’s so much more than I really realized. So thanks for sharing that. Jason, we’ll hop in with a question.

You got one?

Jason Moreau
I was curious because you mentioned in a previous answer about bottlenecks and it sounds like from everything that GFI is involved in, is the primary bottleneck funding, right? Is it essentially like we need the Apollo level focus and funding on, we went to the moon in under a decade. We kind of need that same level and intensity of funding and collaboration if we’re going to, to your point, get back on the right track or are there other bottlenecks that just, money’s always one.

So yeah, that’s the easy one. But like, are there, are there other ones that you see crop up again and again?

Shayna Fertig
So you’re right that money, money is the easy one. And it’s also the one that we see as the most critical bottleneck for the industry. So you might know that a number of years ago, probably around the time that I was joining Impossible Foods, there was a big boom in VC funding for alternative protein companies.

So I think that maybe sort of obscured the fact that we didn’t have much government funding to start. But I think once, once that, once the VC funding started to dry up along with a number of other industries in the last few years, I think we have realized the importance of needing government support because this is such a crucial issue that governments need to care about, right? Climate change, food security, global health.

These are really key challenges that governments are grappling with on top of the opportunity that alternative proteins can provide. There was an analysis done by McKinsey Economists for Climate Works Foundation that found that alternative proteins, if they are successful, they can lead to the creation of 83 million jobs worldwide by 2050. So this is really an industry that can create future-proof jobs that are not as likely to be affected by things like climate change that other jobs and industries are.

So I think the, yes, the need for more government open access research funding as well as commercialization funding is really what we see as the major bottleneck. I think there’s also other issues that are maybe not as widespread in terms of, you know, the funding is really something that will, will enable the research needed for these products to do what they are intended to do, right? Taste good and be cheap.

So that is sort of the baseline. But there’s other things that we see that are cropping up that could get in the way in certain cases of all proteins being successful. So one of those is cultivated meat bans that we’re seeing.

So there were a number of states in the US over the last few years, as well as some countries like Italy that have decided to ban cultivated meat, even though it is largely not on the market yet in most cases. So it’s a little bit silly to think about, but they have decided that cultivated meat is a threat to ranchers and or it is this Franken food that we don’t want people eating. So they’ve decided to ban it, which is really unfortunate because these are a lot of the same people who talk about the importance of freedom of choice.

And yet they are taking away a very key choice, which is the choice to decide what we put in our bodies. Nobody is forcing anyone to eat cultivated meat or other alternative proteins. So that, of course, if you imagine that scaled up, could be a big bottleneck.

But we are working, we have been working on trying to strike down a number of these bans and that will, you know, that work will continue, especially as we build up relationships with governments. I think the more governments can see the benefits of alternative proteins, the more likely they are not to support these bans. There have been a number of ranchers and other stakeholders that we’ve had conversations with in some of these states that have decided to come out against the bans because they really view this as a matter of free market, like let the best meat win, right?

So that’s one potential bottleneck. I would say another one specifically also related to cultivated meat is the regulatory pathways. So right now we have had a number of countries like the United States, Singapore and Israel approving cultivated meat products for sale and other countries like the UK are in the process of doing so.

But certainly there is a risk that if countries are not setting up the right regulatory processes to review cultivated meat applications and approve them in a fair and efficient way, that could be another bottleneck to that piece of the industry. So that regulatory work continues to be an area of focus for us as well.

Sheldon Young
Wow. Yeah. So when you step back and look where we’ve been progressing over the last few years and where we’re going in the next few years, where do you see the shift in progress and where’s the tide going?

I’m not going to ask you to read the crystal ball, but the way I am, right? Where are you seeing the trends?

Shayna Fertig
So one trend that I’m seeing more is a focus on what we call hybrid products. So these are products that involve a mixture of different types of alternative proteins. So for example, a company called Mission Barns here in San Francisco, where I live, they recently received approval to sell their cultivated animal fat products.

And that cultivated animal fat is then used as an ingredient in a plant-based product. I believe their products are bacon and meatballs and maybe salami as well. So it’s primarily a plant-based product, but with cultivated fat.

So I think more and more we’re seeing those sorts of hybrid applications where certain alternative protein technologies are being used as an input into another technology. And this helps both with cost and with taste, right? So plant-based products, a lot of them have struggled with taste in terms of being able to meet consumers where they are wanting that animal tasting product.

So cultivated fat, for example, can help with that. And then on the flip side, from a cost perspective, if you were to just have a fully cultivated pork meatball, as of right now, that would still be really expensive. So being able to use that as a small piece of an ingredient into a plant-based pork meatball, which is cheaper, allows the product to better compete on price.

So I think we’re seeing more of those types of applications. I think another trend perhaps that we’re seeing is more of these B2B type applications, especially in cultivated meat. So I think when the industry was first starting out, there were many companies that were trying to do everything, right?

All the way from developing cell lines down to selling the products to consumers. And I think more and more companies are realizing that not every company in the cultivated meat space needs to work across the whole value chain, right? There are companies that are specializing and focusing on one or multiple areas in there.

And then one final trend or prediction, I guess, that I’m seeing is around blended products. So these are different from hybrids and that blends actually incorporate conventional animal meat and an alternative protein. So for example, it could be a product that’s 60% soy protein or microprotein made from biomass fermentation and 40% conventional meat, for example, blended into a burger that contains both.

And this is a way, while not a traditional alternative protein product because it of course contains conventional meat, it’s still a way both for products to have a lower impact than they would without the alternative protein component, but also as a way to help scale up the plant-based protein or microprotein or whatever that alternative protein ingredient is to help these products reach scale and again, have lower costs.

So I anticipate seeing more of those types of collaborations going forward.

Sheldon Young
Wow. Those sound, wow. I love it.

Thank you so much for sharing that. I think it’s an exciting future, I think. I know it’s one that’s not 100% clear and there’s still fog ahead, but some great stuff and I’m excited to see how they evolved.

So I think we’ve used enough of your time today. Any final things you’d like to share with the people listening, whether it’s promotions or things you have upcoming? And then I definitely want to make sure we know how people can learn more.

Shayna Fertig
Sure. So one thing that I would leave people with is the knowledge that you don’t have to be a scientist to get a part of the alternative proteins movement, right? There are so many roles and needs for people across science, but also across government, companies, civil society, philanthropy.

We really need like a whole of society approach in order for all proteins to be successful. So I would encourage people who are listening to this and interested in learning more to firstly go to GFI’s website, gfi.org. It’s really the best place to learn about all things, alternative proteins.

We also have a bunch of different newsletters and webinars, depending on which angle of alternative proteins you’re most interested in. So we have a regular web webinar series called the science of all protein, as well as other webinars and newsletters targeted toward students, toward industry, folks, policymakers, et cetera. We also have newsletters for our global affiliates.

So if you’re based in one of the other areas that I mentioned around the world that GFI operates in, you can get in touch with those teams via their newsletters. And if anyone would like to reach out to me specifically on anything I said, you’re also welcome to do that. My email is shanaf@gfi.org.

And I’d be happy to get in touch and point you to the best resources to help you.

Sheldon Young
Thank you so much. I mean, great stuff. And I’m going to give a extra special plug to the website cause I, I love it in terms of learning about the industry and about what’s happening and just it’s a great educational resource.

Jason Moreau
Yeah.

Sheldon Young
If anyone wants to learn about alternative proteins, go to gfi.org. It is, it is really, really well laid out and lots of, just lots of like generous content that’s shared. So good stuff.

Shayna Fertig
Yeah. That’s our hope. We want to spread the knowledge as much as possible.

We really believe that, you know, knowledge is power and we want folks to be able to have access to it. So glad to hear that you appreciate the website. I will pass that along to our comms team.

I’m sure they’d be.

Sheldon Young
Fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Shayna Fertig
Thank you.

Sheldon Young
Okay. We’re back. Jason.

Another we’re so lucky. You know, we get to talk to such cool people for this. I mean, I think this whole thing is a big secret plot.

I mean, to get to meet cool people. I’m not going to lie.

Jason Moreau
Don’t say the quiet part out loud, the quiet part out loud.

Sheldon Young
Oh yeah, I know. I, I, I just enjoy getting to meet all these folks that we do for this, this little, little venture of ours. And, uh, you know, I just, it’s, you know, it’s so many smart people and so many people doing really cool things.

And, uh, you know, I love sharing that with folks. Just such a lucky thing we do. Um, what, what were your, what stood out for you in the conversation?

Jason Moreau
Um, so I think. Yeah. First was, uh, her, her sort of comment or reflection that, because for me, I always have this thought when you talk about alternative proteins or as they talk about it on their website, smart proteins, um, where do you start?

It’s the chicken egg problem. Is it the manufacturers giving consumers better options? Is it consumers demanding better options?

How do you, how do you introduce something new into that loop? And I thought it was interesting that she, she kind of came down on that, that it’s a, it’s a supply side, um, sort of problem or opportunity to solve on behalf of consumers, um, and making the analogy with electric cars. Right.

So, and I thought that was spot on where. I think from a consumer standpoint, you do want options. You want the ability to choose based on any number of factors that you prioritize and some of those factors are going to be sustainability, greener, um, regenerative, right?

Like exactly. And if you don’t have that option to choose from, well, what are you going to do as a consumer right there? Like if you still want to consume protein, right?

Like, yeah, there are some, uh, there are some alternative choices, but by and large, those stats tend to be pretty, we’ll call them static in terms of the number of people who are willing to change their lifestyle in that sort of more, um, uh, it would just be more of an upheaval for them in terms of their behaviors and their patterns and what they prefer eating. So I think, I think she’s spot on where she says it really does have to be on the suppliers to produce that, put that into the market again, assuming price parody taste, all of that expectation that the consumer has, but then you kind of look and go, well, same price tastes the same, but if I eat this, I’m reducing my carbon footprint. I’m I’m better friend to animals, like all, all of those choices that you might make.

Right. So, um, I thought that was really cool. Cause she’s the first one we’ve talked to that really just kind of came out and was like, no, definitely supply side.

And I’m like, yeah, you know what? You’re right. You know, it is interesting.

Sheldon Young
I think, uh, it makes a lot of sense. It’s true. It’s such a high bar though.

Right. It’s like, if we’re on the supply side to figure out, it’s like, you know, is you know, the goal is to create products that kind of mimic what exists. Right.

That’s a tough order. That’s a tough order. And that’s, you know, that’s why we had Caroline, Caroline Connor on.

It was like, she kind of helps people identify, right. How close is it? Or you’re a winner or a loser kind of thing in terms of that, that realm.

But then it’s like, how do you, you know, plus you have to make it a price in a price competitive way. So all those things are going to have to kind of continue to move forward. I think again, it has to happen because at some point, you know, at some point there is a tipping point.

I guess it where, where demand is just going to be crazy and unsustainable. And you’re going to see like, okay, wow. Wow.

I wish we had something else here. Cause now my meat product is, is so expensive. I can’t afford it.

I’ve already seen it in some cases when you have, when you have some shortages due to like, you know, the, the flus or whatever they are, right. The things that cause problems, you start to see some of that stress and there’s just more demand. And so I wonder, I wonder where it’s going to go in terms of people that start to create novel product.

That’s not even a mimic of something. Right. It’s just, I had, maybe it has really interesting.

I I’ve always thought about this. Like, is there something that’s like a hybrid of, you know, it, it eats like chicken, but it tastes like bacon. I don’t know.

I don’t know the answer to this. I don’t know the answer to this.

Jason Moreau
And, and culinary mad scientist you are.

Sheldon Young
Yeah. Well, you know, I’m just thinking, you know, what is the evolution look like? I I’m, I’m just some, some guys sitting here that, that eats food and, you know, I happen to be in a, watch it enough to say, you know, I love some of the things that happen around the.

Uh, you know, the, the different, it’s all these different tiers. You’re plant-based and you have your fermentation driven, and then you have your cultivated. I mean, each of the level of complexity just keeps stepping up for each of those three things.

The closer you get to a quote, real and reality, you know, like the actual, uh, you know, uh, meat product, the complexity, so what is the right. Winning combo. And again, I think it’s going to depend, uh, very much on a lot of things.

How, how, you know, how important is, is that perfect taste and texture versus, uh, you know, versus the alternative and then the costs, right. The costs are going to drive all of it. So it’s going to be such an interesting thing.

She did such a good job of kind of laying out the challenges, laying out the, the roadmap, laying out the, the different factors involved that, uh, you know, the, the game, it’s almost like the, the game is set. The game board is set. Now, how do we play strategically as a, as a, as a society, frankly, so that it’s, it can win that this whole concept of, you know, non-traditional protein can be successful.

And I don’t think nobody has to lose from this. That’s what I think. Right.

The more we step back and say that nobody has to lose. We need traditional protein is not going anywhere. It’s there and it should be.

It is important part of the food chain, the food supply. Now, it doesn’t mean that you don’t need alternative protein as well, because people do want to make some choices and people do want to, to, uh, have alternatives for them, but maybe, or maybe it’s just an access thing or cost thing. Right.

And so how can we find that, that path where all of it works? And, uh, I think we’ll get there. I mean, we just get, we get close and we, again, we had a, you know, we’ve had some that have tried and some have not made it and we’ve had some that are making it, uh, and, uh, you know, and then plus we have all us finicky consumers out there that keep changing their minds, frankly, on things.

And so all that has to come together. And so I really enjoyed how she kind of put that together. Um, it laid out the stakes in terms of the impact that is made by, by, by finding alternatives, right.

We can help with some of the bigger problems we have with society on climate and things like that. Uh, you know, I think the, the technology and I guess the innovation is, is continuing to, to get better and better. Yes.

Jason Moreau
Right.

Sheldon Young
Now it’s a question of how do we effectively fund the, I’m gonna call it the winners, um, so that we, so that we can bring that innovation to scale. Right. Yeah.

So I don’t know all those days. I talked a lot right there, but it’s such an interesting topic. I really, I’ve been watching this industry for a few years now and pseudo involved in it in some ways, but, um, it’s just so interesting because I want it to win.

I want, I want, again, I say when I want it to be successful, I want traditional protein to stay, to stay, to stay strong because we need it again. I’m, I’m, I’m not being a hypocrite. I eat traditional proteins, but I think the, the world and society needs this option and, uh, how, you know, if we want to continue to, to, to be functional in the long run.

Jason Moreau
Oh yeah, absolutely. I think what’s interesting for me is like, so each of the three plant based seems like it’s, it’s been around the longest, but there’s been like a lot more, we’ll call it like different positions that they’ve taken in the market. Right.

So the, the earliest was sort of that, like complete, like veggie burger alternative to the normal, correct. And, you know, so they’ve advanced to where, you know, you have impossible and stuff like that, where it is that a traditional beef analog where, you know, taste, texture, everything, right? Like it’s like, you shouldn’t tell, you shouldn’t be able to tell the difference.

Um, and so I, I think it’ll be interesting to see like the fermentation products and the cultured products follow that same curve, but hopefully be able to shorten the cycle, right? So if, if plant-based took, I’ll make up a number 20 years to go from, you know, small pilot testing to some of the larger, the larger brands that have been successful, well, maybe. The fermentation and the cell-based only take 15 or 10, right?

Like with the right investment with the right, because there’s learnings there, hopefully. Um, and I know they’re not analogous. You can’t completely, you know, take one technology and apply to the other.

Um, but just in terms of maybe the consumer preferences and things like that. Um, I think that’s a key point. Like I say, like there’s only going to be a certain, there seems to be any way up into this point, only a certain segment of the population.

Who’s going to go full plant-based that I’m, I’m good with that. I like the taste. I don’t feel like I’m giving something up versus there’s, I think a bigger portion of the population who would go look, if it tastes the same, cooks the same, um, same price and it’s healthier for me and the planet, okay, maybe I go that direct, right?

Sheldon Young
Like, so, um, yeah, I feel, I still think, um, that last part is healthier for me in the plan. Well, I think there’s still storytelling that has to happen there.

Jason Moreau
Yes.

Sheldon Young
I think we’re still in that, you know, it’s, I am not going to get into anything that’s controversial here, but it’s like, you know, there’s a, there are benefits to both, right? I’m not going to get the benefits to everything, their trade-offs and benefits and just getting good, clean, clear information that, you know, that is, we can make good informed decisions around is hard sometimes, you know, it’s like, cause you know, and that’s what, again, I’ll just give the good food Institute a plug here, go to their website, read, learn, and, you know, inform yourself, um, and understand what each of these types of product is and what it actually, you are eating and putting in your body and, and understand how they’re produced and why they’re produced and the importance of it.

So, you know, at the end of the day, I think we’re all on a journey. One, you know, that’s good. That’s going somewhere.

Uh, I think the more I hear about it, going way back to episode one with Paul Shapiro, the future of hybrid is, is probably the next logical or most logical of pathways where you are combining traditional and non-traditional protein to supplement and lower the impact of, of what the traditional protein may deliver. So I think again, I it’s, it’s a complicated discussion, but she does such a good job of laying it out there. I really appreciated that.

And, you know, the trends of, of the hybrid, she talked about that. She talked about, um, uh, you know, companies that are, you know, specialization, maybe the next trend we see, like there are pieces of that value chain, uh, that they’re starting to accelerate the innovation and, uh, that may be the next logical step intermediates, right? You know, there’s, you know, maybe it’s a component of, of XYZ that, uh, is delivery, maybe it’s just a protein itself.

I mean, who’s to say that kind of protein can be used and, uh, in, in a different way, shape and form. So I don’t know. I think, um, having a guest like this makes you think, and I think that’s right.

That’s why maybe I’m talking so much about this is she’s got me thinking more, uh, and I appreciate it out for, and I think what I do end up walking away from is, Hey, this, this, this game is, is just starting. It’s not, it’s not. You know, if this is a nine inning baseball game, we’re probably in inning two, right?

Uh, anyone was, people were running around the field, not knowing what to do. Now we’ve got some winners. We’ve got some, we have some losers.

We have some. Lots of people learning new rules and playing and developing new rules to this game and changing the game. And now it’s starting to get fun, right?

Uh, let’s, let’s hope we continue to see this innovation. Let’s continue to use resources like the good food Institute to, to, to keep ourselves informed and, and, and more of the industry’s going. And, uh, let’s continue to talk to people like Shana, because I think, uh, that’s going to be a lot of fun.

And so, I don’t know, for me, I had a lot of fun this episode, Jason. So that’s all that to say. I had a lot of fun.

Jason Moreau
I did as well. And as usual, I learned a lot. So yeah, really, really appreciated this one.

Sheldon Young
I’m going to say this. You might be getting smart. So happens when you’re smart or yeah.

Jason Moreau
Everything’s a journey. Yes.

Sheldon Young
Everything’s never done. Oh boy. I know.

Right. All right. So where can you find more fish?

Well, you can count if you, you, you, I think she and I gave her contact information, you can also find her on LinkedIn. You can also go to GFI.org GFI.org. That’s the Good Food Institute.

All kinds of fun stuff happening. Uh, and what, it’s such a great website. The reports they do are phenomenal.

The, the, the information they give us is really good. So please, please plug yourself into that. Um, with that, if you have an idea, um, for a topic or a guest, you can reach us at nofootprints.podcasts@alfalaval.com, uh, please like follow subscribe, share, tell your uncles, friends, neighbors, babies, I don’t care, uh, to listen to the show and, and join us here on this journey on a No Footprints podcast where we help make sustainability real. And with that, Jason, uh, again, wish you and our guests and our, uh, listeners happy new year. And I’m excited for what 2026 brings.

Jason Moreau
Same going to be a good one.

Sheldon Young
All right. See you later.

Jason Moreau
Bye.

Sheldon Young
Our guests come from many industries and companies as we’re talking about how the world makes sustainability real. Our company Alfa Laval is a global supplier of process solutions. So it’s very possible that the organizations our guests are with may use Alfa Laval or even our competitors’ products.

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