Interview with Scott Boylston

Transcript

[Sheldon Young]
Welcome to the No Footprints podcast by Alfa Laval I’m Sheldon Young.

[Jason Moreau]
And I’m Jason Moreau.

[Sheldon Young]
We are here to talk about impact and to share the efforts of people behind making sustainability.

[Jason Moreau]
You almost cracked all that extra, the extra enunciation on my last name is to see if I can somehow train the transcription software to type it out correctly. It doesn’t like the last name or it doesn’t like how I say it. So yeah, that’s just for me.

[Sheldon Young]
It always says a Morrow, like tomorrow.

[Jason Moreau]
Correct.

[Sheldon Young]
Right.

So it’s, it’s how it’s, how it’s hearing it. So interesting. You almost said, I know I knew exactly what you were doing and I almost cracked when I held onto that one.

So I’m pretty happy.

[Jason Moreau]
You’re very professional.

[Sheldon Young]
Yeah. A true professional. Oh boy.

Okay. Speaking of professionals. Well, I guess maybe I’m not sure how I’m linking it to this Legos.

I find Legos to be fun. Uh, you ever seen like professional Lego builders though?

[Jason Moreau]
No, the master builders. Amazing.

[Sheldon Young]
Yeah. Amazing. Great.

Amazing. Right.

[Jason Moreau]
It’s like a part of the brain that they have that I don’t have. I don’t know how they do it.

[Sheldon Young]
Exactly. Yeah. And it’s just like, I know it’s, it’s a whole, it is truly a skillset.

That’s why I was trying to connect it to like professionals. But, uh, um, my story today is around Lego. So I think maybe you mentioned it in previous episodes.

They’re building the North American Lego factory. Right here in Richmond, Virginia, right where we live.

[Jason Moreau]
That’s super exciting.

[Sheldon Young]
Yeah, it is. It’s a Alfa Laval actually, I believe probably has some equipment there. Why not?

Right. Um, anyway, so it’s, yeah, but it’s pretty cool. I don’t know that for sure, but I’m hoping it’s there.

Um, uh, but the, um, what’s interesting is, uh, they also Lego is actually really, really, despite, you know, Lego blocks are plastic. What do you mean? Sustainability?

They are actually super, super cognizant of their sustainable footprint and have a pretty good record of, of lowering impact. And that’s going to be the same here. So I just read a story about it.

I’m gonna ask you a quiz question, Jason quiz question. Hopefully you haven’t read ahead. Uh, how many solar panels do you believe they are installing with this new Lego factory?

Wild guess.

[Jason Moreau]
No, I know to estimate a guest. I’d have to know how many gigawatts, a particular number of solar panels produces, and I don’t, the whole thing is producing 26.11 megawatts.

[Sheldon Young]
So I’ll give you megawatts, megawatts, which is pretty big.

[Jason Moreau]
That’s still pretty big. Uh, I’ll go a couple thousand.

[Sheldon Young]
You, sir. What would be off your way off? Oh, okay.

A factor of, uh, 20 it’s, uh, 41,500 solar panels. That’s a lot. 18, no, sorry.

10,800 are gonna be on the roof of the buildings, the number of buildings, and they have a lot of acreage. They have 200, 150 acres, something like that. Uh, about 80 acres is going to be solar panels.

[Jason Moreau]
Oh, wow. Okay.

[Sheldon Young]
So 41,500 solar panels are gonna be installed. So I think they’re taking the whole renewable energy thing pretty seriously there, which I was, I thought that was super cool.

[Jason Moreau]
I could lie and say, I was just thinking how many could fit on the roof, you know, square footage, but I still would have been off, so I don’t even think I can lie convincingly about why I was so far.

[Sheldon Young]
You got to start somewhere, right? Yeah, true. But I put a, I don’t, you know what?

I would not have guessed that correctly. If it makes you feel better, I would not have guessed correctly either.

[Jason Moreau]
Okay. Thank you. Yeah.

That’s very nice.

[Sheldon Young]
That’s a lot. It’s a lot of solar panels. Um, but it’s funny to see that there’s kind of local and, and, you know, I, I love to play with, with Lego.

It’s Lego, the plural of Legos of Lego is Lego. Just very clear about that. And, um, uh, yes, I loved, I loved them.

And so I’m like, ah, but man, it’s so much plastic. I’m like, oh, you know what? I feel okay.

I feel okay. They’re a pretty sustainable, pretty sustainability focused company. All right. What’s, what’s your story, Jason?

[Jason Moreau]
So my story, uh, I guess try to find one that I think went more with like the guest and the topic today.

And so this one actually came from an article on sustainability magazine. And it was really interesting. And it was about brand perception, uh, as it relates to sustainability, brand perception directly ties into brand value.

And there are companies that actually try and measure brand value, which is. Kind of a difficult thing because brands are very amorphous and the value of the brand is in the mind of the consumer, right? So like the value of a brand is how much value it has for consumers, because that determines things like how willing are they to buy your product and pay a premium and all of these things.

So there are companies that try and essentially ascribe a value to that. And this specific one was really interesting. It was looking at the perception of it.

So the index doesn’t rate a company’s actual performance on environmental, social governance. It just tries to quantify the portion of value tied to a consumer’s perception of how good or bad they think that company is, right?

[Sheldon Young]
I think smoke is starting to come out of my ear, Jason.

[Jason Moreau]
Well, this is where you go marketers.

[Sheldon Young]
And you’re just like marketers. This one’s all you. I trust you.

It’s cool. It’s interesting though. Keep, keep telling

[Jason Moreau]
It is interesting. Right. And so basically there’s, there’s a gap or can be a gap, both positive or negative.

And depending on the direction, there’s either more value to be had and grow and lean into or the opposite. So on the positive, they actually found that, uh, Apple had one of the highest gaps to the tune of something like $41 billion, meaning consumers thought Apple led more on sustainability than they might actually, or that their marketing would indicate. So if Apple leaned more into it, consumers would be like, oh yeah, see, I already knew that and it’s sort of a like virtuous flywheel effect.

[Sheldon Young]
Okay.

[Jason Moreau]
So now on the flip side, a company could be finding themselves like in the reverse situation where their brand value is less, uh, in terms of the mind of the consumer. And, uh, I think, you know, you can pick different companies in this category. Um, but what happens is because there’s that gap to the negative, essentially.

They have that friction to overcome, right? So like whether they’re doing sustainability or not in the mind of the consumer, they’re falling short, meaning the value of their brand is down, meaning it’s just friction in terms of sales, in terms of all of these things that you need to sort of be in a better place if you’re running a business. And so, uh, I, I just find that fascinating and, um, just the fact that we as consumers, you know, just sort of on mass sort of, uh, produce these sort of values for a company, like it’s an interesting dynamic.

[Sheldon Young]
It is. It’s funny. It’s like we, we place a place so much credence on, uh, you know, again, what we’re fed in some regards, right?

It’s like we’re, we’re fed a story. We’re fed a value proposition, whether it is they’re a sustainable company or they’re a, uh, a person, uh, you know, a high value company, whatever it is. Right.

You’re fed and you believe a certain thing, but, uh, it could certainly, if you don’t, if your behaviors or whatever, don’t match that, the value of your company can actually go down, which is even though you just say the product is the same, you can be using a product and the product hasn’t changed one bit. And then all of a sudden your value is lower.

[Jason Moreau]
And I think the lesson is if you are doing these good things and you’re investing in ESG and, and sort of sustainability goals, you also need to invest in actually promoting and talking about that. So your company gets the full value of the brand, uh, effect and impact of it. Uh, it would be like, I made the best movie and then I didn’t go on a publicity tour and put out a trailer and tell people about it, right?

The, the cost of marketing, a movie is almost the same as making the movie. And there’s a reason why Hollywood does that calculus. It’s because if you’re doing a good thing, you need to promote the good thing in order to extract the maximum value.

So I think that’s the lesson there.

[Sheldon Young]
Yeah, absolutely. Interesting. That was, that was interesting, Jason.

Yeah. Uh, you know, it was, again, it was, uh, uh, it first of all, oh, I go on marketing zone, but I’m like, okay, I get this now.

[Jason Moreau]
Landed in a happy place.

[Sheldon Young]
You always land the plane. I can say, Jason always lands the plane. You’re the, you’re a great pilot.

[Jason Moreau]
Well, and I was the pilot for this interview were, which it’s a bit of a switcheroo, you know, it was a bit of a bit of a changeup and, uh, I would say I, I enjoyed it. I didn’t mind it. Uh, by and large, I like, I like when you drive the car and I’m just the passenger, but every once in a while, you know, I, you know, I take the turn at the wheel and that’s good.

That’s fine.

[Sheldon Young]
I like to think of us as like the fire truck, the big fire truck, where maybe I’m the guy up front driver thing, but you’re that guy though, the hook and ladder sure that doesn’t crash into the cars parts on the street.

[Jason Moreau]
Yeah.

[Sheldon Young]
Yeah. I see. I think it’s, it is a co-pilot kind of situation.

Maybe, maybe I drive the big wheel up front, but you’re, you’re a very important part of the steering. And, uh, you certainly do that very well. So what are we, what are you driving us into today, Jason?

[Jason Moreau]
So our guests today, uh, really fascinating conversation. Um, our guest today is, um, uh, professor at the Savannah college of art and design. Uh, he came to our podcast by way of an introduction, uh, from one of our colleagues who she had lived in Savannah at a, in a time in her career and thought he would be a, an excellent podcast guest.

And that proved to be the case. Uh, really enjoyed the conversation and I think everybody else will too. So do you think we should listen?

[Sheldon Young]
I think we should listen carefully.

[Jason Moreau]
Let’s do it. Today. We welcome Scott Boylston to the No Footprints podcast.

Scott is a design teacher, author, and sustainability champion. He’s had a fun journey through the world of design and has taken his skills to the prestigious Savannah college of Art and Design, where he teaches a program that we’re going to learn about today called design for sustainability. We’re very excited to learn how design is a backbone to moving hearts and changing minds when it comes to sustainability, it is our pleasure to welcome Scott to the show.

Scott, welcome.

[Scott Boylston]
Thank you, Jason. Thank you, Sheldon. Really nice to be here.

[Sheldon Young]
Absolutely. I just have to give Jason a high five. That was a one shot read.

I just want to say congratulations on that. That was a solid, solid landing, Jason.

[Jason Moreau]
Thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

Well, uh, Scott, um, why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background and sort of the path that led you to design, right? If you can kind of sketch that out for us.

[Scott Boylston]
Yeah, sure. So, uh, so, uh, born in New York city, uh, in Queens and, uh, was raised in upstate New York near Syracuse. And I guess you could say that I was always, uh, more expressive with.

Uh, you know, my hands and, and, and, you know, not say I was nonverbal, but that was very expressive with my hands and creativity, and it gave me time to actually think through things and actually put something in front of people rather than just throwing it out there in the world with my voice. So, uh, so we went to undergrad at, at New Paltz for, uh, for, uh, educate art education, ended up at Pratt Institute graduate school and, uh, studied visual communication, absolutely loved that process. Uh, and then ended up in New York city, uh, designing at a small package design firm, and then absolutely loving that because that was a very physical, uh, and creative, uh, act.

So that’s, that’s, that’s where I started. Um, and, uh, you know, over those years in packaging, uh, I also was doing a lot of writing. And so there too, that was a way of kind of getting ideas out of my head in a way that I could package them, put them together and get them out to the world.

[Sheldon Young]
How does sustainability become part of that equation? I mean, you’re designing things and you will do packaging. I can see how sustainably can weave in, but tell us your story as to how that became part of your story.

[Scott Boylston]
Yeah. Yeah. That’s a great question.

And you know, it’s interesting to look back, uh, at, at that time, this was the early nineties. And, and many days I just pinched myself because I was getting paid to play and we were doing seasonal packaging for Estee Lauder, Yves Saint Laurent, Opium, and, and just a long list. And, and literally it was a job to, to make and design.

And at the same time I was exploring, uh, surf wear on my own, on the side. And, uh, and so I had these two jobs, one, which was, uh, highly professional and engaged in two kinds of things that. I ended up questioning a lot more.

One is the conjuring of a lot of materiality. You know, if you look at, at, uh, cosmetic packaging, it’s big, it’s felt, it’s foil. It’s just filled with materials.

There’s glues everywhere. And so the idea there is to kind of convince people that maybe a little small package of owed to something is worth that money. So it made me a little uncomfortable about the materials.

And at the other hand, on the other hand, it also made me a little uncomfortable that it was for a specific, just a very narrow audience. So while I was doing that and loving it, the surf wear company kind of tapped more into like what I was super passionate about. And that was relationship with the ocean.

Uh, that was kind of like this deep meditative, but also action oriented experience with nature. And, uh, and so that company, we, uh, we engaged in, you know, purchasing organic cotton. We were using soy-based inks.

We donated money to surf rider foundation, an organization called clean ocean action up in New York and New Jersey. And so we didn’t have a name at the time, but it’s in re you know, reflecting, it was a form of social entrepreneurship. It was a form of asking the question, how can I make money?

But then also reduce dramatically any damage I might be doing to the and incorporating ways to build equity into a business model. So that’s kind of, you know, like I was doing both of those, the packaging and the surf wear stuff. And, uh, over the years, um, I, my model or my kind of, my brain shifted more towards how can we make it easier for more people to design businesses that, and once again, we didn’t have the language back then, but, but could be regenerative.

And, and so that was, yeah, that was my journey. And I think it really just started at a very young age with a love for nature and, um, in appreciation for diversity, uh, you know, that combination just led to a path for me.

[Jason Moreau]
That’s that’s pretty phenomenal. I feel like, uh, so you sort of had all these things like organically compelling you, and then you sort of had this call it an impetus to try and synthesize it. What, what other than nature, perhaps, what, what did you look towards for inspiration to try and develop that language or that framework that sort of synthesize some of these concepts for you, where it felt like instead of like, I’m doing stuff over here, I’m doing stuff over here.

I’m actually doing one thing. It’s just two different sides of it. Right?

Like, how did you start to sort of pull those threads together?

[Scott Boylston]
Right. I love that question. And here too, you know, it’s easy to kind of look back and, and put it all together because in, in the moment, you’re just making stuff up as you go.

But I can tell you, remember this is in the early nineties. I can tell you that, uh, the, the, the Rio earth summit, uh, for me was really intriguing, really exciting. And, and kind of this vision of, of taking human innovation, the next radical step, which is an innovation in, in much more sustainable and, and much more equitable ways.

So, so if business was kind of building at that point, uh, with an eye towards this kind of global effort, uh, to reduce negative impacts, uh, that that’s kind of what pulled me into it. And like I said, it was because I was also writing at the time. I think a lot of stuff was stewing in my head.

Uh, and, um, and, and I was, yeah, I was doing that throughout the nineties. And then this, there was a pivot, uh, in my life. I actually break story here.

I broke my neck surfing and I’m very fortunate. You know, I think all you can see now are these two little indentations here. That was from, uh, the titanium halo that I was in for about three months.

And then some other, uh, neck braces and so on. And so you could say I was a near death experience without any exaggeration. It was my second cervical part of it.

And, um, and at that point, you know, I was, well, I was loving package design and loving New York city. And, and it’s, it’s my heart in New York is my heart. I was also asking the question, well, what’s next?

What’s more right. And then what’s next. Uh, and, and that led me to, uh, this gorgeous little town called Savannah, Georgia.

[Jason Moreau]
There you go. So that’s a great segue into scads Savannah college of art and design, which disclosure I actually attended for two, two quarters, because at the time they were running on quarters and not semesters, so not a proud alum. I didn’t graduate.

So I don’t think I’m technically an alumni, but I loved my experience there. And Savannah is a very special place, both the city and the college. Um, so, uh, you know, sort of tell us how did that, I guess journey start with the college and then was it always the, um, uh, the, the course curriculum that you’re teaching now in terms of design for sustainability, or did it start someplace else and evolve towards that?

[Scott Boylston]
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

So, so this, um, this episode with, with, uh, recovering from this neck break and, and the meeting of, uh, my, uh, to be wife, uh, and, uh, and the business I’ve mentioned earlier. Uh, at the time, my wife was not my wife, uh, at the time she was in marketing. She had worked with at Macy’s and done a lot of really great stuff at, uh, at Macy’s around, uh, around retail and marketing.

And so when I started this business, it really was with her. She was the marketing and sales arm. I was the creative arm.

And what we would do every winter, because if you’re a surf shop along the East coast, you purchasing for the summer around February, but you want to make sure you have your inventory in stock, and so we would take a week or two off of our jobs and we would drive down Volkswagen golf surfboard on top and just build with, with a surf wear. And we would drive down state by state and, uh, it would get warmer and warmer because remember this is in February and we would go to all these surf shops and we got beat up, you know, we, we sold stuff, but like, not the way we wanted to, we’re like, you know, so there was a lot of yeses, but also a lot of tough nose. And so we would drive back a few weeks later and every state we would have to put like another layer of clothes on.

Um, and we’d get back to New York. We would look at each other and go like, why? And, and so we started actively looking for, for a city that was big enough to have culture, but not so big that it was, you know, messy and, and it had to be near the coast.

And, uh, we found Savannah and absolutely fell in love with Savannah. Uh, like literally, you know, first time I saw it and, and that was in August, which is, can be really challenging in terms of the heat, humidity and, um, lucky enough to, to end up talking with the professor at the chair of graphic design at the time, Dan Fantowsky, amazing guy. And, uh, and we, we, we chatted and, uh, after that meeting, he’s like, well, would you ever come down here and teach?

And I had thought about teaching because it’s, I don’t know, it’s, it’s really fun and exciting and, and constantly energetic because you have young minds just like bursting with creativity. And so, uh, so I love that question, Jason, because I did come down originally and teach graphic design. That was my, that’s my deep expertise and sustainability was more of my, my vocation, my habit, my intrigue and interest and so on.

And, uh, and I was teaching graphic design for a good number of years and always through the lens of challenging some assumptions, I think no profession can grow without people challenging the foundational assumptions of that profession. And so in our, in our, my graphic design classes, they worked with the community because I think we all know this. Um, people judge a book by its cover.

And so if you can afford to pay someone to design you a nice cover, people are going to see that way of being or way of working or way of life as legitimate or cool or what have you. And what I was seeing is that the communities and community groups who had brilliant ideas, uh, they, you know, they needed a voice, they needed this kind of, uh, uh, visual expression. And so even in graphic design at that point, I was using that as a way to teach, uh, young budding designers who’d be in the field for 30, 40, 50 years.

That with their, their skills, there are responsibilities and obligations, and they should challenge themselves in their profession to live up to their personal ethic and, and they should marry those two, ask questions about those two and then act and through design. So, so that was, you know, kind of the, I guess you said the beginnings of, uh, of moving into something we now call design for sustainability. And, uh, and so I was very fortunate.

Uh, SCAD is like really dynamic and entrepreneurial space, uh, always pushing boundaries, always asking what’s next. And so, uh, around 2006 or so, this, this kind of idea around an undisciplined design industry or profession. What I mean by undisciplined playfully, I don’t mean like Slack or anything like that.

I mean, something that is inbound by, Oh, you’re a graphic designer. So it has to be a website. Oh, you’re an architect.

So it has to be a building. Oh, you’re an industrial designer. So it has to be a thing.

And, and I mean, there’s benefits to, to shaping design, uh, industries in that way, of course. Right. There is, because we need that, that deep knowledge.

But at the time it seemed like, why not have a design discipline that broke those? Um, so the commonalities were more around innovation, uh, around persuasion, uh, around hope is that design is always about hope, uh, and about iteration and about testing, designing, testing, designing more testing, designing more, but not limited to any one industry. So that’s a big part of it.

But then of course, the other part of it around sustainability is. I think anyone who believes that human innovation can improve itself lacks ambition. And so the big question is for the 21st century, what are the drivers and the opportunities for true innovation and design?

And for me, it’s an easy answer. It’s it’s lesser impacts on, on each other, on the planet and, and still build the vision, build abundance, right? Still focus on that, but do it in a way where you just streamline out all of the negative consequences and, uh, and emphasize the power of the positive consequences.

[Jason Moreau]
Yeah. So I was going to ask you that because, um, I’m not sure if you would qualify it as a tagline, but there’s a designing for abundance, right. Is this sort of this ethos that’s in the material for, uh, the curriculum.

And I was just curious how you landed on that. Cause to me, I think that’s, and maybe this is to your point about challenging assumptions is that I think with sustainability, a lot of people have it that there’s what comes as part of that is this discipline and this maybe almost scarcity mindset, right? Like we only have a finite number of resources.

We have to be good stewards of them. Uh, but that, that seems to run counter to this abundance mindset, right? So how do you, how do you square the circle a little bit there and make sure it’s, it’s in balance?

[Scott Boylston]
Yeah, that’s a great question. And that really is the crux of, of the entire issue. You know, we have, um, this legacy and I say legacy, you know, from, from the seventies where, where, what they call the golden era of regulation when it comes to the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act and the EPA.

And, and in, in the early stages of modern sustainability, a lot of focus was, uh, on reducing negative impacts. And a lot of the results were compromised. You know, we, we’ve got to change our system so that there’s not as many toxic effluents.

We’ve got to do this. We’ve got to do that. And so, so that it’s, it’s funny how mindsets linger.

And, and so for, for the longest time, we still run into it now where, you know, people immediately, and there’s, there’s one reason why we playfully say don’t use the S word, meaning sustainability is like, don’t put it out there in front of people at the beginning, because you’re reliant on their interpretation of that word rather than your understanding of the opportunity behind them. And so what, what we look at is, yes, this, uh, designing for sustainability is designing for abundance because we can design out inefficiencies. We can design out unintended consequences.

We can design out, uh, negative impacts on people throughout the supply chain from upstream to downstream. We can design those out and, uh, and there’s plenty of models. And that’s the thing, the last decade, there’s plenty of proof that sustainability or regenerative design, sustainability, whatever term you might want to use actually can build business, can generate more efficiency, can create more dynamics and more meaningful storytelling between the company and the consumers.

So there’s plenty of evidence out there, but we have this kind of lingering impression by maybe people who aren’t quite, you know, keeping up with everything that it’s always about sacrifice and compromise and so on. So, yeah, that’s right, Jason. We, we, we just, we say, uh, design for sustainability is designing for abundance as a way to just reframe the conversation from the beginning.

[Sheldon Young]
Gotcha. Yeah. Very interesting.

Um, so I’m a person, I’m a, I’m a visual connect the dots person. So can you help me just maybe with examples or how do you, how does sustainability work its way into design and how does that manifest itself? There’s a couple of examples of that would help me really kind of get my head around thinking about that.

[Scott Boylston]
Yeah, sure. So, uh, and, and there’s so many to draw from and, and the one danger I’m going to try to avoid here is by, uh, focusing just on one specific area, because then everyone might think, oh, you mean for fashion or, oh, you mean for food systems? So, but as you said, uh, Sheldon, it’s really important to have some examples.

So, you know, we, we have something called a SCAD pro, which is really amazing. It’s partnerships with major industries in, uh, around the world. And we bring our students together to first we’ll like design the brief with the, the company, and then, uh, we’ll, we’ll identify students who are good for, for that particular challenge.

And then they design. And so one for sustainability was, uh, was with, uh, um, a major, uh, footwear and, uh, and athletic clothing company. And, uh, they, they have a lot of CrossFit gear, CrossFit gears, a lot of synthetic materials and high performance, really awesome materials.

And their question was, you know, if, if we have materials that were great in gym settings, uh, in terms of moisture wicking and, and, you know, all kinds of performance characteristics, but when we, we, we, um, we manufactured them overseas, any offcuts from the, the, the, the clothing manufacturing end up in dumps and within a dump, they’re considered toxic, uh, waste. So can we look at those materials, the offcut materials and design new products? And so we went right at that.

We, they, they brought all of these offcuts and, and our students are playing with them, you know, like, Oh, you know, like testing them. And in the end, we developed six new products from their waste streams. And so, and, and these products are like no compromise.

They’re making the best of these best materials and they’re generating new products for the company, uh, with, with reducing the need for, uh, their raw materials. So, so that, that’s one, um, another one presently, uh, we’re working with, uh, a great, uh, organization called Forum for the Future, and we have a futures class. And, uh, it’s, we call it, uh, designing in deep time.

And, uh, and what we’re looking at is 2050 and what the world is going to look like with increased heat stressors, uh, and, uh, and increased heat events because, uh, because the best forecasts and actually all the forecasts show a number of extreme heat days that will, will multiply by a factor of three. Uh, and, uh, and we have a lot of people who work out in the world and, and we’re looking at going from three days due to taking off due to, to, um, excessive heat to having to take 21 days off. So, I mean, we’re looking at something that’s going to really impact our, our economy.

And the question is, how do we as a society, as governments, as businesses and regular individuals adapt? So what we’re looking at is after doing a lot of scenario planning, uh, through our research and, uh, this amazing, uh, technique called world building, which is taking what we learn, uh, through, uh, strategic foresight and then modeling the world, and then asking the question in that world, what products will be of high value. And so our team is presenting that later next week, uh, to form for the future, these, these, uh, imagined, uh, projects and they’re real.

We do back casting to make sure that they, you know, that could happen. Uh, and so that’s another example. Um, we’ve, uh, gosh, I’m trying to think of something that’s outside of those two.

Um, we worked with a major beer company. Some of these are just, I don’t feel like I can express, but, uh, with a very specific bottle that everybody knows the brand by. And, uh, and they were asking the question, uh, if, if recycling in the United States is going down, how do we make sure that our brand isn’t diluted or damaged by people seeing our bottles on the streets?

And so we looked at how you could use. Glass and specifically call it, uh, as, as a model for regenerative city interventions, you know, from, from, uh, air filters to, to, uh, water filtration systems and, and, uh, and, and designed objects all through the reuse of glass. That’s really interesting.

[Sheldon Young]
I mean, it’s a really cool examples. I think how people can look at that and say, okay, I can, yeah, I’m definitely seeing it now. Like how does design overlay into the sustainability story?

That’s how it overlays. And I, I, I appreciate that. Some, some good examples are great.

[Jason Moreau]
My question would be, how do you determine which framework is the best? To approach any particular aspect of the design objective or problem, right? Because you, as you said, you’re, you’re looking at upstream downstream, you’re looking at these like second, third order impacts, you’re, you’re doing your best to consider it from this holistic viewpoint, so many different frameworks.

How do you, how do you pick the right lens, right? For the right problem? What what’s what’s the secret?

[Scott Boylston]
Yeah. Great question. Yeah.

So, and that was a question we had to ask very early on because it’s one thing to say, well, it isn’t just architecture unless we need architecture or is it isn’t just industrial design unless we need, I say need assessing the needs of the particular design brief. So we, we very early on, we developed what we call the three innovations model. And we found that it’s very helpful for not just our students, but for clients and for people who are asking that same question, like what are the commonalities behind, let’s say, circular economy and fashion and, and urban regenerative, you know, infrastructure.

And, and so this you know, that we, I got my hands up cause I think you’ve seen the visual, but I can hear it. Yeah. So, you know, if we can at first identify what the ends are and, and we, we define the ends through a triple bottom line.

That’s what people plan at prosperity. And then we ask going upstream, like you’re asking Jason, the next question is, okay, what tools are necessary for this particular context? And so we call it the three innovations framework, because when we say innovation, too many people think TVs or batteries or smartphone, right?

They think of technology and, and it makes sense, right? I mean, we’re, we live in a world of technological innovation, but what we look at is the technological innovation is really just 30% of the opportunity. Uh, we, so we look at what we call mind matter and society.

The matter part is the technological. The mind part in, in, in, in advertising and in graphic design, you know, a lot of design is very good at this already. And that is helping people see a future that doesn’t exist now through, through visualizing it through, um, through behavioral science, right?

So there’s like a number of tools within that kind of, uh, mind innovation space from behavioral science to telling new stories, to, uh, celebrating, uh, alternative cultures and marginalized communities, right? So like, how do we actually change people’s minds and people’s sense of what they could do in their own lives and, and what our society can do in this next lifetime. So there’s an entire field of innovation and we actually teach, uh, those, these kinds of categories.

And then the third one is social innovation. And so while the mind is more like where individuals stand about, like, well, that can’t happen or sustainability is about burlap, you know, like, like these kinds of framings of the world that we walk around with every day, right? We all look at the world through the lens that’s defined by our own sense of what is and what could be.

So the, the social innovation is different because that is where we can start to operationalize and leverage partnerships, pre-competitive collaborations, if it’s about business. Uh, we can look at participatory design, which is like an amazing opportunity to actually engage it. If it’s business oriented, engage users early in the process, in the co-development.

Um, other parts of social innovation are addressing power inequities. Uh, so, uh, so these could be a cultural or they could be social. Uh, they could be, uh, power inequities through, let’s say, uh, you know, the, the healthcare establishment and, uh, healthcare users, uh, where are the power asymmetry asymmetries and, and how might we design to leverage those, change them.

So, so there’s a lot more in that space, but so you kind of come around full circle. Three innovations, meaning there’s a space for, um, innovating how we think there’s a space for innovating to how we make. And there’s a space for innovating in terms of how we act.

And, and so what we do, and, and this, this, when it all comes together, I’ll show everybody that graph and I’ll say, I want you to think of a tapas menu. And that’s the beauty of this is you don’t have to hit all of those things on the left-hand side. Instead, you look at that menu and say, okay, what would be most suitable for our, our users or our clients?

And, and so, so that’s been very, very helpful. Uh, and it also empowers designers to understand, I think it was Einstein that said, you don’t have to commit. He says something like, I’ll never commit to memory something I can look up.

And which is kind of interesting. Right. Um, and, and, uh, you know, kind of like, okay, that’s really kind of cool coming from a genius.

Uh, so, so what we talk about is those three things on the left-hand side, you can’t possibly be an expert in renewable energy and, and EVs and, and, you know, smart, uh, uh, biomaterials, but you can know where to look for them. And you can know how to ask the questions that can help you discover an opportunity to weave that with one or two of the other innovation spaces.

[Jason Moreau]
This is where I give myself a little pat on the back. I think it would probably fall under the mind space of, uh, I’ve mentioned it a couple of times on the podcast of the MAYA principle, and I feel like that’s, uh, very apropos for what you’re talking about.

[Scott Boylston]
Yeah. Yeah.

[Sheldon Young]
So, um, great education here.

Great to, I guess, opening the curtain a little bit on sustainability and design. I think, you know, we, we have all kinds of guests on the podcast. And it’s kind of the first time we dove into this aspect of sustainability, how important it is when thinking about design, when you want to have a more sustainable outcome, now, not everyone gets the advantage of taking your class or being in, in the, uh, with, uh, with it around you.

If you could give someone that’s listening to this and is interested in how they can incorporate, uh, sustainability into their design to up their game, what would you tell them? What are a couple of takeaways you tell them where to start to order in order to, to get a, get rolling on the right course?

[Scott Boylston]
Yeah, that’s a great question. So, um, I don’t know if I have like one, uh, simple, uh, answer there.

[Sheldon Young]
It could give two or three. I’m a, I’ll allow it. Wow.

Sheldon feeling generous today. Look at that.

[Scott Boylston]
Yeah. You know, I think it, it starts with kind of that, that first foray into a discussion about what is necessary, like the design brief. Uh, and, um, and, and like this may not, this is, I’ll, I’ll put this out there and then we can kind of unpack it.

But, but if you have a good understanding of what a business needs, I mean, we always designers, we’ve researched the heck out of a business that we designed for, if you have a good understanding of their needs and a good understanding of where they want to be in five years or 10 and a good understanding of what their barriers are to getting there. Right. So if you can put those three together and oftentimes it certainly could be done with research, but a lot of deep questions with, with the client, those three things, uh, then the opportunity.

Turns to what, and this is where it gets, like I said, a little more textured. What specific sustainable design opportunity fits best for them. And, and I want to start there because the worst thing is sustainability advocate could do is sit down with a client and immediately say, Oh, you need to get rid of VOCs in your product.

Yeah.

[Sheldon Young]
Regurgitate ideas.

[Scott Boylston]
Exactly. Like you throw stuff at them and like, that’s the absolute wrong answer. So once you know what their needs are, where they want to be and what the barriers are to where they want to be, then you can start to look at, all right, what tools do I have at my disposal?

So a little simpler answer. Um, you know, like, yeah, that’s a kind of if then, so that, that was the F and now we’re at the end of the, then, then, uh, you have the opportunity of. Materiality has a really dramatic innovation space.

So life cycle analysis, um, not a simple thing to do, but it’s, there’s a really good opportunity to help companies reduce, uh, negative impacts of material choice by helping them audit what they’re using now, and then do a comparative analysis of, uh, any number of sustainable materials, right? So another misconception is that biomaterials are always better than synthetic and that’s not true. So you’ve got to be able to like, just, you know, stop before you even go there and ask the questions, what are the performance characteristics that are necessary, like really understand what those materials have to do, understand some of the production challenges.

Uh, and then farm out or go looking for, uh, substitutes that, uh, that you could prototype with. Um, so I, I hate to say, you know, that’s not like an easy thing to do.

[Sheldon Young]
Um, no, but it’s an important one, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[Jason Moreau]
Um, so I was curious if, uh, people want to learn more about the program, connect with you, what is, what is the best way to do that for them?

[Scott Boylston]
Yeah. So, you know, if you look up SCAD design for sustainability, we, we have, uh, we have a good sampling of, of, uh, of what we’re doing there. A good, uh, a good sense of what goes on.

We also have on LinkedIn, something called, uh, SCAD, uh, design for sustainability collective, and that’s where we allow, not allow, we kind of nurture, uh, intermingling between professionals, alumni, and students. Uh, we have sussed SCAD on Instagram. Um, always free to, to reach out to me for sure.

Uh, and, and that, uh, maybe the easiest one to remember would be scottboylston at gmail.com. Um, or it could be my, my SCAD email. It’s a little wonky because it’s, we can put it in the show notes if you want.

Yeah. I would say definitely reach out to me. Let’s talk because we get environmental scientists.

We get lawyers. We’ve get, uh, we get chemists. We get interior designers, architects, so on.

So we get like the typical bunch, um, what you would expect in a quote unquote design program. But we get like these, you know, mid career people who have been like really successful in their particular industry. And they’re like, I want to go further.

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sheldon Young]
Yeah.

[Jason Moreau]
I think there’s one thing we’ve learned from doing this podcast. It’s that even if you don’t have sustainability in your title, whatever your role is in your current organization, you’re involved in sustainability some way, and it’s just making that choice to sort of maybe make it more top of mind and make it more of a, of a priority, right? So I think that’s great that the program welcomes people from all of those different sort of, uh, aspects.

[Scott Boylston]
Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Sheldon Young]
Yeah. And just one final thing I wanted to ask you, just, I know you also written to books, uh, something called the forum for the future. Just tell us a little bit about that aspect.

Uh, you also, uh, bring sustainability to the world through.

[Scott Boylston]
Yeah, sure. Yeah. So, uh, the most recent was, uh, was a book, uh, and actually that’s an interesting addition to what we’ve talked about here, one thing that we didn’t, I didn’t quite mention in terms of the, how we do these things.

Is, uh, we facilitate conditions where sustainable design can emerge. And what that means is, you know, if you have a designer who’s an expert architect, who’s brilliant with sustainability, she’s dependent upon whether or not their client wants it. So, so our program is all about multi-stakeholder engagement and all about understanding where the energies lie in complex social environments.

So the book, uh, it’s called designing, uh, with, with society, um, is very much about the influences that, that have changed the way I see the opportunity for design, and these are people who are engaged in, uh, amazing, uh, change, large-scale change movements like Rias partners, uh, and form for the future. There’s another example, people like Otto Scharmer and Peter Senge and Peter David Stroh, and, you know, people who are like literally the, uh, the social context is the clay they work with. Uh, you know, they were, and it’s, it’s not like a pretty thing.

This is what I always like to say is it’s not pretty, it’s not easy. If you get people in one room and they disagree with each other, one reason why we don’t get better, um, solutions coming out of that is because they don’t, they don’t know how to break the cycle of poor communication. And so, and you design and facilitate, uh, uh, the, the interactions.

And so that particular book is all about how design has power, but then if it could build out some of these, these, you know, stakeholder facilitation skills, and, uh, then, then we could become much more powerful contributors to sustainable change. And then there was another one on sustainable package design and, uh, and a poetry book on environmental degradation. And another one coming up, which is now I say coming up, I’m going to start working on, which kind of builds on more of what the designing with society is, but more from a, a deeper appreciation for this unique moment that humans, um, are experiencing where our innovation has led to such an outsized impact on this planet, that we really have to change the way we see our relationship.

And, uh, and, and, and so like, like participatory stewards rather than, uh, I don’t want to say mindless, um, extractors, uh, that seems so too heavy, but you know, there’s some of that, right? In other words, rather than saying, oh, nature’s abundant, it’s, it’s forever abundant, we can take whatever we want. It’s more like, small blue Marvel, lots of people, we need air, we need water, we need food.

How do we harmonize a little, you know? So, so it’s more designed, like more purposeful, uh, to re-imagine our place on this planet in, in a, in a hopeful and, and an abundant mindset, but also one of stewardship and responsibility. Yeah.

[Sheldon Young]
Yeah. The candy machine runs out eventually. Yeah.

[Jason Moreau]
Well, um, really enjoyed the conversation today. Um, don’t want to take too much more of your time. So, uh, I just, next time I get down to Savannah, I’m, I’m putting in my shot now, I would love to look you up and continue the conversation over dinner.

Cause, uh, just endlessly fascinating about all of the different aspects of how you approach this particular just field of work, um, that we call sustainability with, with an eye or with a, from a lens of design. So just thank you for coming on the podcast. Really appreciate it.

[Scott Boylston]
Awesome. Thank you so much.

[Jason Moreau]
Thank you.

[Scott Boylston]
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And anytime, anytime you’re down this way, it’s just like, all right.

[Jason Moreau]
Nice. Perfect.

[Sheldon Young]
Notice you didn’t invite me.

[Jason Moreau]
No, no, you’re too picky.

[Sheldon Young]
Thanks Scott. Appreciate it.

[Scott Boylston]
Yeah. My pleasure.

[Jason Moreau]
Welcome back. That was, uh, I’m still driving the fire truck as you can see.

[Sheldon Young]
Yes.

[Jason Moreau]
And, uh, I thought, you know, grading myself in the cab of the fire. I mean, I thought that was a great interview. I thought, uh, Scott had some really, really interesting things to say.

And, um, I don’t know. I’m curious what, what were your thoughts, Sheldon?

[Sheldon Young]
Well, yeah. I mean, obviously I, it’s always nice to get a, a fresh, interesting perspective on things. And, you know, I think he’s probably the first one we’ve had kind of from that.

I’m gonna call it the more art side of things. Right.

[Jason Moreau]
I’ll say design. Yeah.

[Sheldon Young]
Design fair, fair, fair.

[Jason Moreau]
Yeah.

[Sheldon Young]
Uh, from the design kind of side of things. And so, yeah, to me, it’s always interesting to hear that. I thought his journey was pretty interesting and fun one, like, you know, Holland surf gear up and down the coast and kind of got inspired from just seeing all the, uh, the wastefulness kind of in the industry, the, uh, all the things that got that, you know, the, the felt to the foil, the packaging materials, all that fun stuff.

Um, I don’t know. It was really interesting to just kind of hear it from that perspective. And because you don’t always think, well, you think of packaging is more of a engineering design thing.

And he certainly, uh, made it clear that, Hey, the design side of this thing is, is really important because you want to have, I’m gonna call it the marketer’s dilemma here. It’s like, yeah. Aesthetics and presentation and all that are super important.

As you know, to like, whether someone buys something or not, how do you also bring this? Cause you can design it and it’s incredibly wasteful, right. And use materials that aren’t great.

And you have a packaging that’s like completely non-sustainable. Even the product was the packaging itself can be, can be pretty bad. And so I love the fact that he’s married these two things together in his teachings.

And to me, I love the art meets science meets practicality of sustainability, all kind of melded into one. And so that to me was super interesting.

[Jason Moreau]
Yeah. And when he was talking about the packaging, uh, you know, earlier in his career, it echoed, uh, uh, past episode with Stephanie, um, from the plastics company where you just sort of the same thing, right. Where you want this presence on the shelf.

And if the sustainable option means, you know, not as, not as much color or the texture, right. Like all of these sort of very qualitative things that communicate something about a product. Uh, yeah, it is the market is dilemma, right?

Because you don’t, you don’t want to contribute unnecessarily to landfill waste in these, these, you know, these bad outcomes. Um, yeah, no. So that I appreciated that.

I think one of the things that, uh, really stood out to me was his, uh, undisciplined design, you know, when he was putting together the curriculum, um, I, he, he used the word undisciplined. I think, you know, multidiscipline is probably the, the better way to frame it. And, uh, is this be a weird comparison, but this is how my brain works and you already know this, but, um, Uh, Bruce Lee, the famous martial artist.

[Sheldon Young]
Okay. Let’s see where this one’s going. You like that?

[Jason Moreau]
Uh, that’s called a tease in the business folks. Uh, he, he created his own martial arts system and, uh, it was called Jeet Kune Do, uh, and the whole philosophy of Jeet Kune Do was to essentially. Uh, free yourself from rigid styles, forms, and patterns.

So he felt like all of the other forms of martial art, they had good things, but they were all locked in these rigid structures and really in order to find the best, uh, most effective way to do something, sometimes you had to be willing to break down those forms and not adhere to that, right? Like take what’s good. And from this system, take what’s good from this system, combine them.

Right. Yeah. The famous, his famous saying of be fluid, like water, empty your mind, be formless, shapeless, like water.

That was his philosophy with his martial arts system. So I feel like very much Scott sort of embodied this with his curriculum where he was looking at, you know, maybe it’s architecture, maybe it’s fabric design, maybe it’s packaging, maybe it right. Like he’s, he’s sort of looking at all of these different models and frameworks and he’s trying to take the best of them and then apply them to the problem at hand.

And so I just, I think he had, he said, you have to challenge assumptions if you want to grow. And so I, so that’s how those two connect in my head, right? Like you, you have to learn a system and then you have to be willing to completely break that down in order to do a new system or to apply it in a different way.

And, um, I just, I really appreciated that mindset and that sort of, I guess, creative approach, quite honestly.

[Sheldon Young]
Yeah. And he had those kind of, if I’m, if I wrote this correct, like the mind matter and society aspects of the whole thing. Yeah.

And so you’re right. It’s like those things are kind of melding. It reminds me of, uh, I remember once I went to a Baha’i temple, you know, the religion, the Baha’i.

[Jason Moreau]
And I don’t know that one.

[Sheldon Young]
It’s, it’s interesting. It’s, it’s almost like they just like, can, like you said, they take a little bit, you know, they kind of respect all the religions and they take pieces and forms and, and, and parts from, I’m sure I’m not getting this a hundred percent, right. But I remember seeing like, uh, homage to like the different religions of the world and how it all kind of came together.

Yeah. So I thought that was in a similar vein. It’s like, you know, taking and taking the best of the best, uh, of each of the different disciplines and, and combining them, it’s an interesting way to think about things, right?

Does it also, by freeing your mind, as you said, again, saying there’s no. Right way, right. There are right ways to do things.

And then how do you take those components and create something that is right for the situation that you’re in? Right. That’s every situation presents unique challenge.

Every situation presents unique opportunities. Every situation has unique resources available to you. Like you may have something, well, this product has to be made of something that is, uh, I dunno, a certain type of material, like no plastics allowed.

Okay. That’s a constraint. Okay.

What are the, that means everything else is not a constraint. And so finding something that, that respects the, the, uh, element of the design desired while also incorporating the, uh, the, the spectrum of things available creates possibility. And so I think what I love about this is sustainability is one of the design parameters.

We want something to be sustainable. It becomes one of the, like, you know, for a, for a marketer, it’s like the marketing brief it’s in the brief, right? It’s gotta be, it’s gotta not violate these sustainability principles, but Hey, these other things are on the table.

Have fun.

[Jason Moreau]
Correct. But he was also very realistic, right? So, which I appreciated his balance because he was very clear, like don’t say the S word because you don’t know what that sort of what’s the connotation for them, what attachments, what values positive or negative connotations that that has in the person that you’re speaking to.

And so to not essentially, for lack of a better word, pollute the conversation or the design conversation early with, well, it’s this, right? Like what you’re trying to do is just problem solve. You’re trying to ask the right questions to your point.

You’re establishing what are the non-negotiables? What are the areas of exploration? And then yes, that like, if we design this, well, sustainability will be an outcome, right?

But like, if you kind of lead with that, then you, you’re, you might be stepping into murky waters when you don’t even know that you are. Um, so I, I, I thought that was really interesting. Um, I really loved his, uh, some of the examples that he gave of the projects.

[Sheldon Young]
Yeah. Yeah. I wrote that down as well.

Like the, uh, just the fact that you’re taking the one that we took all the waste streams and they, their goal was to create from the waste, right. What a neat, you know, what a neat concept.

[Jason Moreau]
I thought that one was great. That one was, um, that was great to hear, but I was like, oh, okay. That makes sense.

The, the one he said after that, I was like, oh, wow. That’s like second order thinking. It was the company who realized that glass recycling was like not as, um, available in a certain region.

And so that there was going to be to the story I mentioned at the top negative brand association, if people in this region saw all of their glass bottles, littering the road, right. And so it’s like, oh, that really shouldn’t be my problem, but it is my problem because I’m producing the bottles and there’s no system to take care of that sustainably and responsibly, right? So now it’s like, okay, well, well, how do we do that?

What, what, what can we own and how can we fix that before it becomes this downstream problem was. I just, I love that idea of like, you know, we tend to think like, here’s our lane that we’re swimming in, in terms of the things that I can design around or the things that I can impact. But it’s like, if you go one level up, it’s like, oh no, maybe if I think differently here, all of these negative consequences don’t actually exist downstream and I’ve actually reached outside of my lane and had that impact more farther afield.

So I just, yeah, that, that way of thinking is very inspirational. Yeah.

[Sheldon Young]
Yeah. It was, it was a fun interview for sure. I think, uh, I certainly, again, added to the, the quiver of arrows in terms of how do you think about design as part of the sustainability story, right.

Um, and incorporate, you know, when you’re, when you’re sitting around the table thinking about a project or, or, or a way to, to make a project, uh, more successful and with less impact, don’t forget the designers of the things like, like the packaging or whatever it is, right, don’t forget to bring them there, uh, and cause that stuff matters too. And, um, uh, you know, you can still have a really great outcome. Uh, for, you know, your aesthetic, your, your functionality, all that fun stuff.

And it doesn’t have to, to violate the principle of sustainability.

[Jason Moreau]
No. And that was his, that was the, that was the other big thing, right? Like he was very much designed for abundance and you, you know, it was in, we can have this and this, and this, if you design it the right way, you can really minimize and not feel like you have to make these super severe trade offs.

And so again, I just, I think that way of thinking was super helpful too. Um, so yeah, be like Scott, be like Bruce Lee, be like Sheldon approach sustainability with all kinds of, uh, tools in your belt and pick the right one for the right job and get it done.

[Sheldon Young]
Yeah. How we get it done, Jason. Uh, speaking of getting it done, let’s be done.

I think, uh, if you like this podcast, yeah. You’ll please follow, like, subscribe, share with your network and friends and stuff matters to us and making this show a success, uh, so we can keep telling stories and let people tell their story. Uh, you can follow our website, uh, or see more about our website.

Uh, see more about our podcast. Let’s say that right. Jason at, uh, nofootprintspodcast.com.

We have a website now. Thank you to Jason. And then you can reach us at nofootprints.podcast@alfalaval.com

And with that, I say, let’s call it a day.

[Jason Moreau]
See you soon.

[Sheldon Young]
See you soon.

Our guests come from many industries and companies, as we’re talking about how the world makes a standalone reel. Our company Alfa Laval is a global supplier of process solutions.

So it’s very possible that the organizations our guests are with may use Alfa Laval or even our competitors’ products. This does not mean that we, the hosts or Alfa Laval are endorsing any of the companies guests or the specific ideas that we discuss.