Interview with Fabian Bernal

Transcript

Sheldon Young
Welcome to No Footprints, a podcast brought to you by Alfa Laval. I’m Sheldon Young.

Jason Moreau
And I’m Jason Moreau.

Sheldon Young
We’re here to talk about impact and efforts and the people behind making sustainability real. Jason, my friend, where were you at? This is not your normal location.

Jason Moreau
It is not. I’m in an undisclosed bunker in New England visiting family.

Sheldon Young
Excellent. Excellent. I hope the weather is finally turning into more spring-like weather up there.

It’s where we normally are. It’s starting to get warm, warm, which is, you know, always suspect.

Jason Moreau
Yeah. I saw that, like, close to 90 today down there, right? Getting warm here in Virginia.

Sheldon Young
So where’s your trip brought you in terms of sustainability knowledge and insights?

Jason Moreau
Well, I don’t know about knowledge, but I have noticed that it’s easy to take for granted the sustainability around you. But when you travel, you definitely see it. Because there’s definitely some things that they are doing up here that we’re not doing in Virginia and vice versa.

And so it just sort of really brings it to the fore. And you kind of realize, like, oh, shouldn’t take these things for granted. And oh, there’s still some areas to improve in our beautiful home state.

So yeah, travel always does that. So yeah, from a sustainability standpoint, that’s what I’ve noticed.

Sheldon Young
Interesting. Yeah. I’ve noticed that myself on my travels.

You go here, they’re doing the plastic straws versus the paper straws or vice versa or whatever it is, right? It always, every location and culture, whatever you want to call it, has its own kind of rules and pathway based on their priorities, right? It’s their priorities.

What is most prevalent in their area? Like if you’re, you know, I know you’re near the water, sorry, I’m sure there’s a lot of things related to keeping the water pristine and keeping the surrounding areas pristine.

Jason Moreau
Yeah. I think they want the beaches to stay beautiful, right? They need to be welcoming to tourists, but it also becomes an economic consideration if they have to clean up a bunch of plastic straws from the beach, right?

That’s money that could go towards something else, nourishing the beach or some other improvement project. So yeah, it’s interesting to see how different priorities play out in different scenarios, different localities.

Sheldon Young
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, that’s a very good insight, Jason, if I may say. But yeah, so my sustainability story this week is a pretty fun one. So I got to go to the United Nations last week.

Jason Moreau
I like how you let me go on and on about beach straws and you’ve got UN in your back pocket. Cool.

Sheldon Young
Yeah, you win. You win sustainability talk this week. It’s very different.

I mean, your insights are valuable too, Jason. We all know that. No, but I mean, it’s kind of a cool thing.

Alfa Laval.

Jason Moreau
It’s a very cool thing.

Sheldon Young
Yeah. Yeah. We got asked to kind of be part of this United Nations.

It was called the STI forum. It’s a science, technology and innovation forum. And what it really was, it was kind of neat to see it because it brought together the public sector, the private sector, the education sector kind of all together and said, this is how we use technology to achieve our UN sustainability goals, the 17 SDG goals that they have.

And so it was kind of what was really interesting to me is like the immense amount of talent we have around the world that are working on these problems and are thinking about these problems and they realize, look, we have to do it. We can’t do it in a vacuum. UN, it’s a, it’s a bureaucratic organization.

Like that’s what it’s designed to be. It is a organization that brings together different governments, right? Okay.

They know how to do things really well in their realm. Education. They bring in kind of the research and the things that go with that, right?

Private sector, you bring in the business acumen. How do you get things done in the real world? And I think bringing that all together was really interesting to see.

And honestly, I left it very energized and feeling like, wow, okay. So there’s lots of smart people that are engaged in this, on these problems. And I’m excited to see how it continues to evolve and how we continue to see progress through these kinds of interventions and ecosystems for lack of a better term.

Right. That’s what I really liked about doing that. And so it was very privileged by my organization here to be allowed to go be a part of that.

And so I was thankful for that.

Jason Moreau
Yeah. And you wore a suit, which I thought was amazing because I’ve not seen that before. So you look good.

Sheldon Young
I know it’s like catching, you know, Sasquatch riding a unicorn. It’s pretty rare.

Jason Moreau
Photographic evidence.

Sheldon Young
It did happen. It did happen. Right.

Speaking about things that are exciting to see, we have a great guest today. I’m very excited about this, this individual, really cool stuff. I mean, I love the things they’re working on and I’m excited to get right to it.

So what do you say we hop over and start that conversation, Jason?

Jason Moreau
Yeah, I’m excited to hear it.

Sheldon Young
Let’s go. Our guest today is Fabian Bernal. He is the Vice President of Sustainability, Modeling and Measurement at Dairy Management Incorporated and has over 20 years of experience as a leader in the dairy industry.

He has influenced sustainability and animal welfare in the dairy industry throughout his career and we are excited to have him on today. Welcome, Fabian.

Fabian Bernal
Thank you so much. What a pleasure.

And it’s so good to see you, Jason and Sheldon. I appreciate the invite. And yeah, looking forward to this conversation for sure.

Sheldon Young
Yeah, excellent. I recently, just a little history, I watched you give a talk in like, I think it was Wisconsin Dairy webinar they did. I’m like, wow, that guy’s really kind of cool.

I wonder if he’d be on this podcast and I was glad you said yes when I reached out right away and we’re excited to talk to you. So first, let’s start just introducing you and kind of what your history is in the industry and what kind of got you into sustainability.

Fabian Bernal
Well, it all started really after meeting a veterinarian and a professor at a university in the U.S. I was overseas at the time. It all started there. This veterinarian was very focused on dairy production, on practices and development of dairy in a way that was sustainable in terms of business, but also animal health, quality.

And there was a lot of discussions then. I was very young, coming from a family farm where we have from chickens all the way to cattle. And my father was or continues to be a scientist.

And I was in that dichotomy between science and veterinarian science and ag production. And this veterinarian, Dr. Jenksbread, well-recognized as one of the leading veterinarians in dairy production in the world at the time, gave me an opportunity to come and work for him. From then, many opportunities happened.

We traveled the world looking at cattle, looking at their production systems. And my story was pretty much broken down into four distinct areas over these four years, over I’m sorry, over these 20 years of consulting and professional development. The first piece, the first part of my career was focused a lot in the milk quality and efficiency and productivity from the milk production systems.

In the second piece, I focused a lot more on the area of efficiency, but this time including animal comfort and cow comfort and environment in which the animals are placed in. We started looking more about the environment and how the environment is having an impact on that production system and how farmers are actually trying to work around this environment and somewhat change and update the environment so the animals have the best opportunity to succeed within those systems. And then there was the third piece, the third area in my career where we started looking at how do we connect sustainable growth to these farms and economic viability to this growing business that became a lot more technical in nature with more nuisance to discuss from animal health to personnel and training of employees and moving farmers from being only a farmer focusing productivity and focusing his farm to be a manager and an economist and starting to look at these different pieces that included a lot more, including the towns and people around them and the communities around these farms and how they interacted with them and how all of these started to shape an industry to continue to grow, to continue to have a huge influence. And that leads me to the fourth piece of my career in which sustainability became the way of putting it all together.

And it’s bringing that idea of animal health, welfare, social impacts, economy, environmental measurements and modeling and understanding where are we going and where do we have all these questions and challenges and just simply bring clarity and focus in an area that in my opinion encapsules the whole process, the whole procedure around sustainability and around dairy production, all the way from cradle, all the way to processor. There is a lot to be discussed and that’s how I frame my 20 years career to today.

Sheldon Young
Well, it’s certainly a fun journey it sounds like. So with sustainability itself, and this last part is really interesting to me because obviously it’s kind of home for what we’re talking about on here and all that’s led up to it is so important to get there. How does your role now tie directly into sustainability?

It’s VP, Environmental Sustainability Modeling and Measurement. What does that mean, first of all, and then how does it impact sustainability for people in the industry?

Fabian Bernal
So for the last 10 to 12 years, I’ve been focused and studying deeply all the intricacies of sustainability, how is it measured, how it is explained, how it is actually understood by people around that has an influence or an impact on. And so I came to DMI just about two and a half years ago with one purpose. The purpose is to bring clarity to all these difficult measurements and clarity to those that are most interested in how do we explain our practices, our activities, and the impact that they may have at environmental level, at economics level, and at the societal level.

So in my job, I am responsible for modeling, metrics, and reporting. So what I do is take all this information, national information mostly, translate that into environmental impacts and measurements of greenhouse gas emissions or water emissions or even other types of measurements and report in basis of those to what the industry has done over the last few decades and what we can do towards the future. The point being is that all this that I am in charge of is a guidance principle, a guidance model that helps people understand and benchmark against.

So they, in their journey through sustainability, they have a place where to look at, a place to compare and see I’m following a certain path. So what I bring to the table at this point is updating all brand new metrics based on the newest science, try to help people update their own metrics and models. So we all are talking the same language, we’re talking about the same metrics, we’re talking about the same standards and models.

So when it’s time to have these discussions of how do we move forward, we’re at the same level, in the same plane level, and we can all make steps forward in this path of sustainability and sustainability growth.

Jason Moreau
So how do you simply define sustainability for all of those stakeholders? Taking all of those inputs, how do you boil it down to that just clear, we’re all looking at the same page?

Fabian Bernal
Well, what I do believe is that when it comes to sustainability, there are many unanswered questions still. And it depends on what most interests you and the person that is working on. We can talk from how to reduce emissions and what is required of farms to achieve those emissions.

We’re talking about livestock emissions or methane emissions. So a lot of people focus on the animal, others are looking at net zero versus GHG neutrality. Others are talking of the role of the entire value chain in decarbonizing the whole process.

And for others, it’s simply animal care and welfare. And so it is quite difficult to determine. But in my opinion, sustainability is all about the interdependencies that exist between three things, the environment, the economy, and society.

But it’s not just that. It’s where environment and society connect that drives that to be a supported system that supports both the society and the environment. When environment connects with economies, that those economies are viable and can be moved forward.

And when society and economy connects is that it has to be equitable. So it is not just these three pieces that a lot of people talk about, society, environment, economy, but it’s the connectivity between them. And somewhere in the middle of those are the main contributors to a sustainable development.

I also tend to agree with the United Nations in terms of what sustainability means, which for the United Nations, they describe it as sustainability is to meet the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs. I still agree with that a lot.

Sheldon Young
That’s a great definition.

Fabian Bernal
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I still agree with that a lot. But in my opinion, in the time that I have spent in terms of sustainability is beyond this is EG or social, economic and governance or social, economic and environment is beyond that is the connections in between them is how do we bring that connection and the clarity on how do we measure those things?

For example, in the environment, are we measuring air, the air we breathe, the water we drink, the soil we use? How do we measure that and how do we make businesses viable from the economical point of view when using these resources? Right.

So it’s this connectivity that that I’m most interested in and be able to measure that and be able to help people understand that there are opportunities, that there is there is a great options in there and great opportunities from the economical point of view, from the environmental point of view and even the influence in society.

Sheldon Young
Yeah, I really love what you did there by, you know, sustainability is kind of what’s important to you in the work that I do as well. It’s like it’s one of the first questions I ask them is what are you measuring? What what when I was asking what does sustainability mean to you?

And so that usually uncovers kind of the things they feel they can impact and the things, honestly, you kind of nailed it on the head that. Connect to their economics as well as their impact, right, those things are almost inseparable in some ways, and so having the ability to kind of tie it all together for them, that’s where they’re going to focus almost every time, for sure.

Fabian Bernal
Yeah, absolutely. When it comes to sustainability, value creation is absolutely critical is not about these measurement is not about the next science IPCC, AR seven metrics is not it’s been able to create value across the entire value chain all the way to end consumers to demonstrate that we are both taking care of the environment and taking care of the society. So I have a lot of thoughts around that, and especially I tend to follow these these maturity curve, which we can explain at a later point.

Sheldon Young
Questions for you. Yeah. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah.

Fabian Bernal
Yeah, absolutely. So when I look at sustainability and value creation and how do we explain how we grow in terms of sustainability from a commercial point of view, as well as personal point of view, there are certain levels and certain steps that we should follow and think of. I like to to use this graphic created by EcoChain and and they did a fantastic job of putting all this together.

And basically, it deals from the point of where we ignore sustainability completely all the way to create a purpose and a value through sustainability. But there are important steps through it. And I’ll go into those steps in a second.

But I would like to say that if we were to to skip or jump over any of these steps, likely a scenario in our maturity curve, we will slip down into this curve and we will create resistance. And that happens often. So the steps are like this.

We start at the very bottom with ignoring this whole thing to initiate this thought of compliance, things that we must do, things that are simply associated with compliance. Right. And we just have to do it because compliance being that regional global do it or else.

Yes.

Sheldon Young
Yes.

Fabian Bernal
Number two, and we go to this license to operate. Right. When when we started having some pressure and we have to look for design license to operate.

And truly, we’re looking at reducing the risk, the operational risk in our businesses. Right. And that’s probably a step to step two.

And for many, many years, we and many companies left within that process in and really trying to figure it out how to reduce risk and and and being sure they can continue to operate and create and build their businesses. During this process, you are actually protecting the value of your business. You’re protecting the business.

And and there is very little of value creation at that moment. Then, like a scenario, you go into your maturity curve, you go to the next level, which you deal with efficiency. And here is when you start thinking on the smart things to do things that are right for your business.

So you start looking at operational savings. If I reduce the use of these, can I save operationally cost? Can I save the use of different materials or resources?

So on and so forth. And then there is a environmental process optimization. Here’s where we started thinking on on on optimizing the process.

Right. So we’re starting to look at the supply chain. A lot of a lot of great companies that are that have moved very, very quickly in sustainability.

They move from a from an economics type a CEO to more of a supply chain style CEO that really took in consideration how things are sourced. How do we optimize sourcing? Where do we get these from?

How do we reduce cost and travel and many other things that translated then into sustainability or sustainable business development? Then it comes to the next level, level four. This is where we’re looking at long term viability of sustainable innovation and business models and brand enhancement.

This is where where things get really interesting because you are really putting the effort into leadership, be the leader in the industry and putting tremendous effort into sustainability as part of your brand, as part of your business, but part of your part of the way your organization gets paid for, even CEOs and the boards and so on and so forth. The problem is, and I’m going to stop here for a second before we go to number five, is when when we listen to this step is very, very interesting for many, right? And they say, OK, yeah, I like that idea of moving a little bit faster and they may jump a step and they may go from from that license to operate to try to become a leader.

And in that process, a lot gets missing. A lot get lost. And what happens is that you end up with a lot of resistance and you slip back down in your curve, right?

Sheldon Young
Yeah, it’s this what I what I hear here is a lot of similarities to the change curve. Yes. Change management.

Yeah. I mean, when you look at the change management curve, you can’t just go zero to 100. Otherwise, people will jump off the bus.

Fabian Bernal
Absolutely.

Sheldon Young
And they will actively resist you and try to make you fail because they’re like they’re not bought in. So I think what I’m hearing here is very, very similar to like these are steps to buy in for the people. Yeah.

Fabian Bernal
And through this process, you are now going from value creation to value acceleration. And there is one more piece to this discussion. In the steps, let’s call it from one or from zero when you’re not paying much attention to to step three, you’re looking mostly at external stuff.

All the influence is external to your business. Once you get to a step four and then five, which five deals more with the purpose of your company and starting to create a different level of value through cultural changes, increasing value to society, to environmental and beyond business of economics, where you’re looking at another pieces. Now you’re looking internally.

You’re looking at how do we internally make those changes, how we know the other ones are not changing internally many things, but you’re looking at all these external factors. Now you’re looking internally and you’re reorganizing your focus. You’re reorganizing the way you do business and how you become a leader where the old external influences are no longer the main driver, but it’s you, your people and your business.

And so the fact here is that we can slip back down in this maturity and create resistance at any point at the very top or even at the very start. And if we’re not clear on what is it that we want to do, how do we are going to measure it and how we’re going to apply these? Simply the translation of all these metrics and translation of this science gets lost and we end up with that situation in which we are.

What’s what’s there for me? I don’t get it. I am doing it all.

What matters to me, I can’t do no more. And that point is where where a lot of these things get, in my opinion, lost in my role, what I do. And that was a long way to to get to the same point.

But in my role, what I try to journey, though, it’s a good journey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In my role, what I try to do is to is to bring clarity and also help this process of stepping up to the curve.

And for those that may have questions, we try to identify where they are in this curve. And I give you the best metrics that can help you move to the next level. But I’m not going to tell you to to change your business models when you are just trying to maybe figure it out how to operate in this environment that is putting pressure into your business.

It’s just not the right thing to do. But creating those tools, creating the information, creating meaningful pieces of information that anybody can one take for their education and second benchmark against, in my opinion, is the first steps on clarity and it’s all about clarity. I do believe we’re in a world that that requires that in this moment of time where tremendous pressure is is placing in in businesses, in society, in the environment.

It’s all about clarity so we can take the best steps forward.

Jason Moreau
I think that’s really interesting because. I think this is a topic that it’s really easy to be passionate about. And so you want to jump in and just start somewhere.

But what I’m hearing you saying is take a beat and really do that assessment to truly understand where you are on that curve to set yourself up for success.

Fabian Bernal
You can’t say it better, Jason is absolutely right. I find many CEOs asking, how do I measure where I am today? Well, I’m not exactly sure what you’re telling me.

Are you asking me for your business point of view of of greater impact to the society? Or are you talking about looking at your supply chain and initiate an LCA or a scope one, two and three measurement? I’m not exactly sure at what end you are.

So it is very important that when we see it as consultants in terms of sustainability to really listen and be able to clarify what is it that we’re after? We’re after being a operational efficient or are we trying to change the company in terms of the way culturally they work? There’s two separate discussions, but the question may be very similar.

So, yeah, anyways, I absolutely love these discussions because when I see it, when I try to explain my work, which is very in a way, somewhat kind of boring to many looking at numbers and graphics and and very little answers at the end of the day. What it is, it’s a guidance and it is what it is. It is a piece of guidance.

And then we can take it from there. And I do believe this is what we all need to do is just lay a hand to to those in the value chain, especially specifically in my case, in the dairy industry, lay a hand and say, this is likely the path we need to take. But I need your opinion as well.

And through measurement and metrics, we can both make a decision.

Jason Moreau
Do you find that in your work companies think they’re a bit farther along in the curve than they are? You do the assessment and then you’re sort of showing them there’s maybe a gap there in terms of where they think they are and where they actually are on the curve.

Fabian Bernal
I, I think I will. I will answer that from the point of view that while they may have heard of having to mature in terms of sustainability, they don’t quite see it or don’t understand it quite clearly. Yeah.

And and these definitions are so connected that that there is a lot of confusion. And the questions, again, the questions come from where you are and what is important for you. So so it is it is a bit of disinformation, a bit of a speed up.

And I get to a finish line, but the finish line is not quite clear. The way I like to see it is is I am a F1. I love F1.

Sheldon Young
Oh, me too. I love it.

Fabian Bernal
Yeah, I absolutely love racing myself. And if the way I look at it is you have to slow down to speed up, right? You are coming to a curve.

You have to slow down, look at what’s ahead and then speed up. And I believe in terms of sustainability and to many that have made goals for 2050, we’re coming to that curve where we need to stop or not slow down, look ahead, see what we can do. Where do we place ourselves best to hit that ultimate target?

And I do truly believe that we are at that inflection moment. We have about 25 years to to agree or get to certain targets to 2050. And if we put it into perspective, it’s twenty five crops, twenty five breeding sessions for for our animals.

It’s not a lot. It’s not a lot. It’s true.

And and so one of the things that I really want to be able to do at this point is to measure the gap, the gap of what with the technologies that we have today, with the knowledge that we have today and we intend that we have today, how much can we decarbonize the industry? And that’s it. And and as important that that is based on economics, based on modeling and many other pieces, historical data and so on and so forth.

What’s most important, in my opinion, is to determine what is the gap at the very end. Many companies are coming to that decision and to that realization is to measuring the gap. That gap is normally known as the opportunity gap.

And the importance of that is to determine that that gap that is left and we’re talking right now in terms of greenhouse gas emissions, we can do it as well as water and many other environmental impacts. But let’s talk in terms of greenhouse gas emissions. If we’re able to measure those, then we can focus in innovation, development for to address that portion rather than looking at a I mean, a bigger environment, a bigger situation that we don’t know if we will hit the market or not.

We’re doing our best to strive to do so. In my opinion, if we’re able to measure the opportunity, the gas, even by gas type, then the technologies that we can create and we can look into in the research that we can then follow can target that and help in that decarbonization and further with a targeted vision of how do we do it again? How do we place ourselves to success in that slowdown that that I believe we’re coming into?

Ultimately, I do believe that no industry can do this by themselves. Ultimately, there is no way we can do this on our own. No industry, not the dairy industry, not the beef, poultry, any food, any energy, no one.

This has to be a collaboration in which measuring those targeted pieces, that opportunity gap could open the door for us to say, hey, by the way, I have a technology that may fit in that section and we can collaborate. Or by the way, we have found a way to manage our soils or manage our systems in a way that part of that can be also addressed. And there is where collaboration, there is where the next level of science and businesses will rely is truly my belief in this.

Sheldon Young
Absolutely. So when you think of, you know, when I think of this big, hairy, audacious goal of decarbonization by 2050, whatever the year is, right? I think of, you know, it can be overwhelming for many people, right?

And like, OK, when you look at this and I imagine through all the data and insights that you’ve looked at over the years, there are things that these dairies can do that are like, I’m going to call it little wins, things that can like move the needle enough to get momentum, right? Because if you start to try to eat the, you know, eat the whole thing at once, it’s never going to happen because of resistance. It’s like you’re saying.

In experiencing the things that you’ve talked to all the dairies that you worked with, are there two or three simple things that they could start to look at that makes impact that you’ve seen work and that moves the needle?

Fabian Bernal
So from the environmental point of view, there are there are very, very critical ones in soil health. If any investments in soil health put you immediately ahead manure management and investments are improving practices of manure management, they are immediately and ultimately. The cow, the cow at the center of everything health.

Animal health, genetics, improvements, cow comfort, proper management of the animal. Absolutely critical, critical, critical. The efficiency that we can gain from from these incredible animals is outstanding, but it’s driven mostly through good nutrition, good care, good health.

And in that part, I find it to be absolutely a must. Low hanging fruit, as as we sometimes mention from the societal point of view, investment in people, when we’re talking about what as a company are my goals, my goals might be produced and become more efficient and have the lower impact. But unless I I transfer that information, I educate my staff and the society around me.

Nobody will understand it and nobody will understand why you are doing the things that you’re doing. Right. And your employees won’t understand what is it that you’re doing.

So so that part of in society, investment in people are always, always a benefit translate eventually into economics. And finally, I do believe that interacting with at least your local societies and and demonstrate that you are interested in their well-being in the environment, well-being in the business, well-being because there is an impact to the community brings then the last piece to sustainability from the environmental point of view. At this point, we have evaluated over 27 different technologies at farm level and 12 processor level and looking at economics, impact economics, visibility and looking at which ones are feasible with the economics that we have today.

And in that point, determine what fits and what doesn’t fit is very important is is it’s not a matter of discussing the last and the latest technology is what it fits within the models and what it fits within within different farming styles and be able to clearly define those for for those in that similar environment. Right. From a small farmer to the bigger farmer, to the small processors, to the large processor, from value added to to fluid milk.

Not all technologies fit. So be able to clarify what fits, what doesn’t, what considerations should be taken again. Clarity, clarity, clarity.

Sheldon Young
Very good. OK, a couple more short questions to wrap us up here. One is resources.

So if someone’s interested, OK, look, I’m starting my sustainability journey. I don’t really know where to begin. How do you do that?

Where would you send them to go learn a few things?

Fabian Bernal
Wow, that is a that that is such a good question because we just launched through the VMI and the Innovation Center for U.S. Dairy, we just launched a wonderful website. This website is called the Dairy Conservation Navigator. You will find it at dairyconservation.org.

And this inset has really great pieces of information from getting started through classes, one on one classes, basic information all the way to a little more technical and all the way in this section called the Learning Hub will bring people from from basics all the way to the enteric methane emissions assessments, all the way to environmental modeling and much more. Right. From that point in the same website, dairyconservation.org, there is a group of about 88 different practices that you can sort and and look through and filter through based on the type of of business that you have, meaning farm size, type of interest that you may have, being that water or greenhouse gas emissions or soil health and regenerative farming and so on and so forth. And you can sort that information. Furthermore, it has a good section on funding and financing that I do believe will grow over time and be a lot more beneficial. Is that portion needs to be a lot more pointed.

But but as of right now, it gives you all the resources to get you started. So excellent, excellent, excellent website. I highly recommend it for consultants, for people getting started from farmers, anybody interested in in dairy development, in sustainability and sustainability practice.

That website puts it all together.

Sheldon Young
I love it. Fantastic. Great resource.

And now so you yourself, I want to understand about how sustainability becomes real in your life. Any any fun fact around sustainability in you?

Fabian Bernal
Yeah. Well, a fun fact, I’m actually a farmer and I farm.

Sheldon Young
You’re living. You’re living. You’re living the deal here.

Fabian Bernal
Absolutely. Absolutely. So what I preach, I actually I actually apply.

We have a small farm in Kentucky where we we have a sheep farm and and fruits and vegetables farm. But we also have a second facility where we have cattle and it’s a cow calf operation. One of our facilities is already in region certified.

Well, the other one is in the process of of certification as well. It takes us about five to ten years. We’re looking at the first facility.

We’re trying to get that to be a greenhouse gas neutral. We consider that we will achieve these by somewhere. Thirty five to twenty thirty eight somewhere there.

We’ll see how things work out for us. We have implemented over twenty seven different practices in this farm from repairing restoration to forestry management, to grass and grazing systems, intensive grazing systems, no till cover cropping, even in the winter times. We have implemented as much as we can.

We find ourselves sometimes a challenge in our aspirations because, well, some technologies might be technically commercially ready. They may not be available just yet for my region. So in or different regions, right, or the scale that we may need, we might be able to do a test plot, but not the entire farm in certain technologies.

And so for that, we we we look a lot. And so my wife is a biologist, a specialized in water resources. And she does the forestry management and all the water resources and nutrient management while I do animal health performance and do all the other environmental practices related to to sustainability.

And so that’s that’s how I apply. Yes, yes.

Sheldon Young
I love it. I love it. Fantastic.

And finally, just so if anyone wants to reach out to you or learn more from you, connect with you, how would they do that?

Fabian Bernal
Absolutely. I’m very active in LinkedIn. So you can find me in Fabian Bernard in LinkedIn or simply send me an email.

Fabian that Bernal at Dairy.org. And that’s where I am as well. So I am always available, always willing to listen, always an open door to this type of discussions and guidance.

If I if I can. Furthermore, I’m eager to learn. So if if if there are options, areas that that could even impact and make this process even better for those that I can reach later, I’m always open for for further information and learning from all from all.

So it is a pleasure. Thank you so much for this discussion. And thank you, please.

Anytime.

Sheldon Young
I appreciate it. Thanks so much. It was really informative.

Lots of great info there to learn from and to take in. So I hope I hope we’re connected more in the future and looking forward to working with you. So take care.

Fabian Bernal
Thank you.

Sheldon Young
And we are back. Fabian Bernal, pretty fun, pretty.

Jason Moreau
I think that’s like a TARDIS interview. It’s there’s more going on on the inside than it’s run time would suggest.

Sheldon Young
OK, there’s a lot packed in there. Pause. You just went super nerddom there.

You have to back up just a moment. For those that don’t know what a TARDIS is, there’s a show called Doctor Who. It’s been around for many, many years.

Was a show. How dare you?

Jason Moreau
It’s still running.

Sheldon Young
It’s still running. It’s still running. Doctor Who flies around space time continuum in this police box that is a time machine and it’s bigger on the inside.

So that’s what the TARDIS is. For those who need to know.

Jason Moreau
There you go.

Sheldon Young
Sorry, I had to clear that up.

Jason Moreau
Oh, my God. I like that you’re like a super nerd reference, but then it’s like instantly you knew what I was talking about. You basically just.

Sheldon Young
I knew I’m a super nerd. Yes. But, you know, he’s not a super nerd.

Well, maybe he is. He’s kind of he’s kind of on that. And when it comes to sustainability, he is.

He is kind of a sustainability nerd in a good way. Right.

Fabian Bernal
Absolutely.

Sheldon Young
Fabian Bernal. First of all, quick, fun fact about Fabian. I can’t remember if we talked about the interview or not now.

Sorry. We can record the interviews before we talk. He was head of sustainability for a company called DeLaval, which is used to be together with Alfa Laval.

We used to be the same company. It is the kind of the agricultural arm of Alfa Laval. And so they he was the head of sustainability for that.

So that was kind of a fun fact. If I can’t remember if it was in the interview, if it was, I’ll cut this out. But yeah, so what I really loved about talking to Fabian was him finding his passions, right?

You know, living it. He was he grew up on a farm and his dad was a scientist. He met a veterinarian on the way.

His path was just kind of laid out and he grabbed a hold of it. That was really, you know, it’s always fun to see someone that has done that in their career.

Jason Moreau
Absolutely. Yeah, he he’s he is a nerd about sustainability in the best way, in that he has gone both deep and broad. And his mind seems to sort of constantly be searching for.

But what else or what next or how does this connect? Right. It’s I just really appreciate it.

He seems to approach everything with this curiosity and this mindset of it could maybe there’s more here. And, you know, and just even at his level for doing it, what, 20 years, he’s like, yep, there’s probably still more work to be done. So I just think it’s it’s something to keep in mind as.

Yeah, all of us are on our own individual journeys with it, that even after 20 years, you’ll be you’ll still kind of be like, well, probably still more to learn. Yeah, right at the end, he’s like, if anybody wants to, you know, contact me, I’d love to learn new things. I just think that’s great.

I think it’s an amazing mindset.

Sheldon Young
Yeah, that thirst again, when it comes to sustainability, we keep. It’s it’s still an ocean, right? We’ve just like our oceans, we’ve only explored a certain part of it.

And there’s so much more that lies beneath as we continue to evolve our capabilities, as we continue to look at different problems. And, you know, you start with the problems that you can tackle and the bigger ones and the things like that, the ones that makes most impact. As you keep going, there’s more.

And you’re like, oh, it’s kind of an honest, it’s never ending journey. But it’s a journey that continues to fuel curiosity and fuel people’s, you know, desire to to work on new things. I think it’s a great area to do that, right?

Because there’s so much work to still do. And at the end of the day, you know, every every little step you make is a little step closer to a more sustainable planet. And, you know, his passion around it was certainly really, really noted and energizing to be around for sure.

What I really one of the things I appreciate most about. That conversation was acknowledging. The journey path itself, you know what I mean?

Jason Moreau
Yes.

Sheldon Young
Yeah. So like talking about the different phases of getting there, the you know, first of all, we just got to get compliant. That’s like step one.

And then moving into all right now we’ve done that. Let’s start to be a little more efficient and, you know, in the simplest of ways. Right.

And then long term viability. And then that whole sustainability leadership, the nirvana, where, if you will, of of being, you know, kind of we’re looking at sustainably. It’s part of who we are.

Jason Moreau
It is what we part of who you are and that you would be willing to make economic tradeoffs because it is such a core to the organization, right? Like it really lies at the heart. So.

It’s probably fair to say that not every company or organization gets to that level, but I think that’s OK because there is so much good value created. Even if you don’t, it’s almost like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, right? Like it’s it’s a sustainability version of that.

And lots, lots of good ground to cover, even if you never hit that tippy top peak.

Sheldon Young
Yeah. And I also really appreciated his acknowledgment of you can’t skip the line. Right.

Right. And again, I think, look, let’s be honest. So it’s never when I’ve ever worked on projects or projects on journeys like this, per se, it’s never linear.

No, it’s never. You know, obviously what the steps are, you’re going back and forth between them all the time, depending on what the priorities are, what the what the climate is, not the literal climate, but the business climate. All those things become variable.

But the fact that he makes mention of you just can’t jump to the front and say, OK, we’re super sustainable now, everybody do this. There’s change. It’s like the change curve.

I don’t know if you’re familiar with that concept. I’m sure you are.

Jason Moreau
Yep.

Sheldon Young
But you can you know, there’s that whole pit of despair type thing. And finally, people get on the bus or they don’t. Right.

And but to get through that curve, you have to follow the journey and accept that it is change and it’s hard. And so I think the very, very same thing is sustainability, just like anything that’s a big change for people. It’s finding that incremental value on the way, you know, slowly working through getting people on board and bought in.

And then then you can make the changes, the real changes, the real work. But you can’t skip it. You can’t skip it.

Jason Moreau
No, because the the part of the path that I thought was interesting because I went and dug into the model a little bit was the driver at the beginning is external, right? It’s for compliance purposes. It’s it’s obligatory.

Maybe there’s regulations, maybe like it, but it’s much more external. But as you sort of move along that maturity curve, it’s more intrinsic. It’s an internal driver like you.

It’s exactly what you’re saying in terms of the organization now adopts this as a value in and of itself and is now driving it because of it’s something they want to do versus something they’re being told they have to do. And yeah, yeah. Anybody who has has worked with kids, with animals, with you, right?

Like, you know, you kind of. The motive you only get so far with external sort of drivers. There needs to be an internal motivation to sort of, I think, keep going to participate in that journey.

The other thing I took away from our conversation was his Formula one reference, which was the right. Sometimes you got to slow down to speed up. And I think it’s that goes to what you’re saying.

Like you can’t skip steps, but you you do really need to embrace where you are at each step and then just wholly own that. And that’s OK, right? Like it’s not a race to get through the mature.

Like there’s no gold medal for going through the maturity steps the fastest. It’s like doing the work at each step and really committing to that. So that analogy stuck with me.

Sheldon Young
Yeah, that’s a great, great, great pull, Jason. I think you’re right. You’re right on with that.

I think that that whole analogy may make perfect sense to me. So I had a question for you, though, as a marketer. So this is a change curve, right?

So and there’s a there’s a lot of change management. And he talked about some of the things that are easy, potential easy wins, the dairy world, like soil health, manure management, health, health of the animal, et cetera.

Jason Moreau
Yeah.

Sheldon Young
So how would you if you had this, you worked in an organization, you were trying to get that sustainably journey going. What would your path as a marketer be? How would you how would you do that?

I like to put you on the spot, but I’m going to.

Jason Moreau
Yeah, there’s a there’s actually a behavior model that’s pretty good. It’s called the East Framework. OK, it’s been borne out by a lot of studies.

And so it’s an acronym. EAST. And the first is you got to make it easy. You got it.

So if you want somebody to change behavior, you have to reduce the friction for changing that behavior. Right. So, yeah, Fabian gave his there was like a dairy collective website that he was associated with.

And he has that website. I’ve gone through it. There’s like 80 different things you could do.

And the website tries to make it as easy as possible. And they have a greater right. This is an easy thing to do.

This is a hard thing to do. Right. So start with an easy win.

And then the A of East is make it attractive. And I think in this case, attractive is is it financially attractive? Right.

Sheldon Young
Right.

Jason Moreau
For the organization. Right. Like it’s either small investment, large return.

Right. That type of thing. The S is make it social.

Right. So this is both, I think, internal to the organization. Right.

Like getting people to go from that external driver motivation to owning it, making it internal, but also seeing how you compare socially. Like you’re now part of a group of organizations that are operating in this new way. And then the T is actually interesting.

That’s make it timely.

Sheldon Young
Yeah.

Jason Moreau
And that’s what’s interesting, is that. Not every you can hear the same message, but sometimes it doesn’t hit you the first time or the second time. Sometimes it’s the fourth or fifth time.

And so I think for organizations that are really serious about advancing on that maturity curve. You can’t really predict the timeliness of things, which means you just have to keep on repeating it over and over and over again. And over.

And that’s from a marketing standpoint. That’s that’s why you see the same advertisements. That’s why you see the same messaging.

Right. Because it’s like we’re going to forget our brains are not designed as a computer system. Memories degrade.

And so you just need to keep on reinforcing that because you don’t know when that message is really going to resonate with somebody. So I would that’s how I would approach it.

Sheldon Young
Great story. Yeah, I like that. I mean, I think honestly, it’s like I think it’s a big people often forget the change management aspect of these things.

Right. Or underestimate it often gets set up. Yeah, you’re right.

Or underestimate it. Right. Forget or underestimate it.

Oh, I sent an email. We sent out an email on that. We talked about that.

Right. OK. But that’s not how that works.

That’s not how human brains work.

Jason Moreau
Yep.

Sheldon Young
Great. I thank you for running through that little model. I think that’s valuable for people as they think about taking, you know, using some of these tools and concept that Fabian introduced.

How do you also make sure that they stick and how do you make sure that it actually leads to the goal that you want? So, yeah, a great, great, great. I’m glad I asked you that question.

See, I’m giving myself credit for your work there.

Jason Moreau
Don’t worry, my wife does that, too.

Sheldon Young
It’s fine. It’s totally fine. It’s a partnership.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is. It is.

Speaking of brilliant questions, if you have questions for us or ideas, you can send them to us at NoFootprints.podcast@AlfaLaval.com. A L F A L A V A L. And we’re happy to take the ideas for for shows or guests.

Happy to get those to send them on our way. Next time we’re going to be talking into kind of a follow on topic of this sustainable and regenerative agriculture. And just in general, we’re going to talk about that as a next topic.

And I think it’ll play back to some of the things we learned today. So good stuff.

Jason Moreau
Can’t wait.

Sheldon Young
All right, my friend, I will see you next time.

Jason Moreau
See you soon.

Sheldon Young
Our guests come from many industries and companies, as we’re talking about how the world makes sustainability real. Our company, Alfa Laval, is a global supplier of process solutions. So it’s very possible that the organizations our guests are with may use Alfa Laval or even our competitors’ products.

This does not mean that we, the host or Alfa Laval, are endorsing any of the company’s guests or the specific ideas that we discuss.